I wish folks didn't think "certified" equals "problem free", when in fact...

[James_OldeTowne]

... it means "may have problems, but not to excess". I have a particular certified coin that does have a couple of minor problems, but neither is a serious problem, and the coin's grade adequately reflects a net assessment. In fact, it looks undergraded at first glance, and only when I disclose the presence of the couple of issues and explain how they affect the grade do the potential buyers back down.

 

Realistically, unless it is a 70, EVERY coin in existence has "problems"! It's just that often, the "problem" is merely contact marks that bring the grade down to (say) MS-65.

 

Rant over, and your reactions appreciated!

 

 

[cpm9ball]

You're right of course, James, but I think the term "problem-free" has become the catchword for meaning that a coin is gradable. I think that anyone who advertises a coin for sale as problem-free is making the claim that, if submitted, it would be certified.

 

Chris

[HCumberdale]

I own a 1909-S V.D.B. that has been certified by PCGS as AU50. It has been net graded because of an old, very light cleaning. It is easily 55 otherwise, maybe even 58 on a good day. I bought it at an EF40 price from a collector who bought it unaware of the problems and wanted to be rid of it. I consider it a beautiful coin and had no problem with it.

 

Personally I like coins that look undergraded at first glance, but then I'm primarily a collector and not looking to sell for profit on most of the coins I purchase. Maybe the buyers who are backing out are concerned about the difficulty of getting rid of the coin somewhere down the line.

[physics-fan3.14]

People need to realize that getting it into problem free plastic really only means its market acceptable. Dipped, questionable toning, a few light hairlines, etc.... as long as it is market acceptable, they'll slab it. It is because, at the heart of it, TPG's VALUE coins, they don't GRADE them. That's an important fact that too many forget.

[Arizonadesertrat]

Last month, Rick Snow showed me a counterfeit Indian Head cent in a slab. It was very expertly done (you had to have an extremely good knowledge of die pairings to spot this one). I have also seen tooled coins, AT'd coins, and seriously hairlined circulation strikes in NGC and PCGS holders on occasion. Stuff happens. Consider a grade/slab as simply a starting point in evaluating a coin.

[bsshog40]

I believe your assessment is correct james. Also, what Jason says with MA is also correct. I also believe that this is one of the reasons that money is paid to a TPG to be able to identify these problem areas and grade a coin accordingly. I can't understand how a TPG is suppose to employ professional graders and not take the time to identify good counterfeits as Az. above was telling.

[WoodenJefferson]

In response to a good counterfeit in a top tier slab: It would be a economic disaster to hire graders who specialize in individual series like IHC's or Flyers, but what are they supposed to do if there are no coins in that series to grade? Of course you hire graders who maybe specialized in a certain series, like say Morgans, but they also have extensive knowledge in other series which rounds out their skills. I would trust the top three 99% of the time in their assessment, that other 1% is collateral mistakes where some get caught later on, while other problems remain undetected.

 

I agree that James statement is accurate, I like to think of a coins grade as a sliding scale, even though two coins technical grade might be the same, other factors come into play with the final evaluation.

 

Problem Free to me means something totally different to the next collector. The term is widely used to portray what normally is a automatic rejection by the services.

[Oldtrader3]

"Problem Free" has become pretty hackneyed over the years. Heritage calls every coin which they Auction and is not in a Details slab, problem free. I just pass by the words as though they are boilerplate because they are so overused. Kinda like "good for grade".

 

You really have to see a coin and make up your own mind as to what level is eye appeal acceptable to you.

[Walkerfan]

I agree with the previous statements and I want to add that I believe that key dates get 'special consideration' that other dates may not, so WATCH OUT!!

[TwoKopeiki]

Call me crazy, but I expect coins in NGC or PCGS plastic to be problem-free.

[physics-fan3.14]

Call me crazy, but I expect coins in NGC or PCGS plastic to be problem-free.

 

You're crazy.... I didn't want to, but you told me too.

 

Seriously though, this is an extremely erroneous position.

[James_OldeTowne]

Call me crazy, but I expect coins in NGC or PCGS plastic to be problem-free.

Contact marks are "problems", since they are damage, and their presence diminishes the grade of any coin, based on severity. Thus, every single coin that even has one single tiny contact mark is also by definition a "problem coin". That is why I state that, except for absolutely perfect coins, every single coin that exists is a problem coin.

 

All that matters is how many "problems" a coin has as to whether it certifies or not.

[Arizonadesertrat]

"Call me crazy, but I expect coins in NGC or PCGS plastic to be problem-free. "

 

So do I, in theory. But I am a pragmatist, and have seen WAY too many problem coins (including some counterfeits) in top-tier TPG slabs. Evidently, others in the marketplace are skeptics too--witness CAC's influence, collector discussions about the type of NGC or PCGS slab a coin resides in, etc.

[RWB]

Certified = genuine item and guaranteed as such

Grade = opinion, including defects.

[Oldtrader3]

I have seen way too much age discolored putty in TPG slabbed coins to believe that they are "problem free", especially with scarcer gold dates.

 

I flagged one of these to a sales person at a large national auction house. His response: "so what, it will shake out in the bids on the coin"!

[coinman1794]

That's a terrible thing for them to say, but I think the auction houses get into a situation where they don't want to belittle their consignor's material; and many big dealers dump their in auctions to "let the market decide." Of course, the description rarely mentions the problem. I don't agree with such practices, and as I mentioned in another thread, I send such coins back to be downgraded.

[James_OldeTowne]

That's a terrible thing for them to say, but I think the auction houses get into a situation where they don't want to belittle their consignor's material; and many big dealers dump their in auctions to "let the market decide." Of course, the description rarely mentions the problem. I don't agree with such practices, and as I mentioned in another thread, I send such coins back to be downgraded.

"When it comes time to sell", a heavily promoted auction is an excellent venue in which to extract maximum gains from other collectors.

[No+4Me]

People need to realize that getting it into problem free plastic really only means its market acceptable. Dipped, questionable toning, a few light hairlines, etc.... as long as it is market acceptable, they'll slab it. It is because, at the heart of it, TPG's VALUE coins, they don't GRADE them. That's an important fact that too many forget.

 

Exactly!

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

The reality of what I said earlier is: that these puttied or doctored coins get cataloged in major auctions, being lauded in fancy catalogs, with pictures, as "problem free, better date examples of a rare and desirable coin for specialists of the series" and end up selling for pretty strong money to an online bidder. Any collector can and probably will be fooled by one of these coins eventually and I try to be a concious and careful buyer. I am not proud of it but I have been victimized a few times. Particularly if you, like me, do not attend far away auctions yourself or do not pay a trusted dealer to "buy on inspection" for you. Some of the country's largest auction dealers have nicked me on doctored coins. I guess they are blind, carried away by their own hyperbole and I am stupid?

 

That is why collectors pay so much for CAC stickers. At least with digital cameras and high resolution coin photos, a collector can catch some of this pernicious packaging in progess. My all time favorite was the Auction Director who sold me a MS65, better date, Saint which I bought from them and then because I am a small collector, bombed the same coin when he sold it that he had lauded when I bought it from one of his bud's in the original auction. His priceless parting shot was: "Well, all Saints are slightly circulated, you know"? This is a classic statement, if I ever heard one.

[Conder101]

Some of the country's largest auction dealers have nicked me on doctored coins. I guess they are blind, carried away by their own hyperbole and I am stupid?

No, they are just selling slabs not coins. And if you check the terms of sale you'll find that they take no responsibility for slabs. They write their description based on the label and a quick visual impression and if there are any problems, take it up with the grading service. It's not their problem, it's the buyers.

[Oldtrader3]

Condor, of course intuively, I know that you are correct. I guess that I thought for instance where they are selling primarliy coins that are worth more, that their commissions are thereby larger and they would spend another second looking at the coin, since they have to write a somewhat accurate description?

 

Oh well!

[coinman1794]

Some of the country's largest auction dealers have nicked me on doctored coins. I guess they are blind, carried away by their own hyperbole and I am stupid?

No, they are just selling slabs not coins. And if you check the terms of sale you'll find that they take no responsibility for slabs. They write their description based on the label and a quick visual impression and if there are any problems, take it up with the grading service. It's not their problem, it's the buyers.

 

That is spot-on!

 

Also, we cannot control the big dealers, but what we can do about this on a grass roots level is take responsibility for the problem slabs we encounter. Rather than dumping them in auction, have them reviewed by PCGS and NGC. Both services are willing to address problem coins through their guarantees. PCGS has a free spot review service; NGC has a free Appearance Review service. At very least, problem coins should be listed in the description. These actions have never served me wrong.

[Oldtrader3]

This is true, I agree that having the TPG review is the way to go, at least for an already slabbed coin if you buy a clunker. I was just surprised how lacking the Auction house was of forthrightness in mentioning something that I could, on inspection, easily see in their pics.

[James_OldeTowne]

This is true, I agree that having the TPG review is the way to go, at least for an already slabbed coin if you buy a clunker. I was just surprised how lacking the Auction house was of forthrightness in mentioning something that I could, on inspection, easily see in their pics.

PM sent , and Thank You in advance.

[Oldtrader3]

Thanks James, for the PM and I have responded. I have bought coins from James on this site in past years and they were always very nice and as described.