Whats going on with shield nickels ?

[dooly]

Narrow dates 1869's are fairly easy to find, although they are noticeably less available than the wide date.

 

(thumbs u

 

so is my calculation right that with fletcher's 350 to 1 that there is about 46,842 minted out of the 16,395,000 for 1869 ? and if so only 2 or 3 dies were made .. if you take the 20,000 to 21,000 before the dies failed quote?

 

 

[skippy]

No, that can't be right. With only 3 dies, there would have been 30000-45000 coins minted, which would (I believe) make them much scarcer than they are. (Only slightly more available than 1880s.) With only 2 dies, they would rival the 1880 for scarcity.

 

Besides, Fletcher lists 5 variety dies in his book. No one knows how many more non-variety dies there might be. Where did you get a 350 to 1 number?

 

If you feel like doing some research, go through all of the historical auctions on Heritage for 1869 shield nickels and calculate the percentage seen of narrow dates.

[RockMyAmadeus]

An 1880 was sold tonight for what I thought was a very strong price.

 

How rare are "the rare dates"...?

[dooly]

No, that can't be right. With only 3 dies, there would have been 30000-45000 coins minted, which would (I believe) make them much scarcer than they are. (Only slightly more available than 1880s.) With only 2 dies, they would rival the 1880 for scarcity.

 

Besides, Fletcher lists 5 variety dies in his book. No one knows how many more non-variety dies there might be. Where did you get a 350 to 1 number?

 

If you feel like doing some research, go through all of the historical auctions on Heritage for 1869 shield nickels and calculate the percentage seen of narrow dates.

 

morning .. i thought that sounded low this quote is from Flechers boo page 16 .

 

"1869 brought around the first year in which two different four digit logotypes were used these were "Narrow digit" and "Wide digit" varieties; the narrow digit being the more scarce of the two. from personal searching, one out of every 350 has been a narrow date."

[dooly]

An 1880 was sold tonight for what I thought was a very strong price.

 

How rare are "the rare dates"...?

 

good question .. i have no idea as i spend all my time looking for cherrys no mater the date .. so i pay little attention on how often they come up.

 

i would say there seems to be a high percentage of the proof coins which have survived

 

 

[dooly]

Well good idea Howard went through Heritages past sales and there was 198 MS 1869 and there was 17 Narrow date coins .. but at least 2 were the same coin re-holdered so only 15 ND out of 198 so about 21.7% so out of the total mintage of 16,395.000 it works out (if my maths is correct) at 3,557,715 narrow dates were possibly produced

 

and with the working die rate of 21,000 would work out at 169.41 dies used ?

 

pictures of the coins from heritage and mine

 

 

I am now working on the pictures to pull out some of the die variations .. lets see what i come up with from this small selection

[dooly]

Die 1:

Stand out very well with the 8 position of 4 and the die gouges between lots of the bars of the stripes

 

Another one which seems to be a slightly later die state

[dooly]

Die 2:

Has the 8 position of 3.5 (not sure as fletchers guide has nothing for one which go's through the middle of the 8 .. this one also has die gouges between the bars but much less of them and different positions for the die cracks compared to die 1

 

[dooly]

Die 3:

8 in position 4.. also with lots of die gouges but this time at the top left of the shield and date touching the ball

 

[dooly]

Die 4:

8 possably in the 5 position with some die gouges in the shield and a diagnostic die crack running through the top of the 6 through the 9 and out into the field 8&6 almost touching the ball

 

[dooly]

Die 5:

8 in position 4 this one also has die gouges in the shield like Die4 but 8 & 6 seem further away from the ball and no die crack through 6&9

[dooly]

Die 5:

8 in position 4 and die gouges at cross & die cracks running at 6 & 9 and with 8&6 touching the ball like Die 4 but i think there is enough difference to say it is a different die

 

[dooly]

Die 6:

8 in position 4 and die crack running through the bottom of the 69, 6&9 touching the ball

[dooly]

Die 7:

8 in position 6, 8&6 close to the ball but not touching .. i cannot see any die markers

[dooly]

Die 8:

8 in position 3.5 8&6 close to the date but not touching .. a few die cracks but nothing stand out as a die marker

 

Possibly the same Die

 

Possibly the same die

[dooly]

Die 9:

8 in position 3.5 .. almost as Die 8: but hand engraved leaf different

 

[dooly]

Die 10:

Yet again the 8 is in position 3.5 .. possible thick 1 in date and nice die crack from G to cross

[dooly]

Die 11:

8 in position 4 nice clean early? die state coin .. 8 touching ball 6 not

[dooly]

Die 12? like die 7 but date seems closer to ball

 

[skippy]

Well good idea Howard went through Heritages past sales and there was 198 MS 1869 and there was 17 Narrow date coins .. but at least 2 were the same coin re-holdered so only 15 ND out of 198 so about 21.7% so out of the total mintage of 16,395.000 it works out (if my maths is correct) at 3,557,715 narrow dates were possibly produced

 

and with the working die rate of 21,000 would work out at 169.41 dies used ?

 

15 out of 198 is 7.6% on my calculator.

 

I'd guess that you probably didn't catch some reholdered wide dates, especially ones where the cert number changed. So, just for a round number, call it 10% of the mintage is narrow date. That means about 1.6 million coins.

 

In the early years, die life was on the short end - 10K to 15K per die. Even at 15K, that is 107 dies.

 

Those numbers seem reasonable to me, but there's no way to know for sure.

 

[skippy]

Also, I should point out that features like die cracks and the die fatigue break (the spikes off the vertical bars in your photos) are not necessarily indicative of different dies. The same die earlier in its life might not show those features.

 

Things like date position and shape of the engraved leaf are reliable features on which to distinguish different dies.

[dooly]

Well good idea Howard went through Heritages past sales and there was 198 MS 1869 and there was 17 Narrow date coins .. but at least 2 were the same coin re-holdered so only 15 ND out of 198 so about 21.7% so out of the total mintage of 16,395.000 it works out (if my maths is correct) at 3,557,715 narrow dates were possibly produced

 

and with the working die rate of 21,000 would work out at 169.41 dies used ?

 

15 out of 198 is 7.6% on my calculator.

 

I'd guess that you probably didn't catch some reholdered wide dates, especially ones where the cert number changed. So, just for a round number, call it 10% of the mintage is narrow date. That means about 1.6 million coins.

 

In the early years, die life was on the short end - 10K to 15K per die. Even at 15K, that is 107 dies.

 

Those numbers seem reasonable to me, but there's no way to know for sure.

 

maths was never my best subject but maybe a little closer to the answer thanks skippy

[dooly]

so Howard .. knowing how bad my maths is .. how many to one would it be ?

 

[dooly]

sellers pictures

 

picked this up tonight and i think we have a VP-011 , Fletcher F-04 what do you think

[skippy]

 

picked this up tonight and i think we have a VP-011 , Fletcher F-04 what do you think

 

Definitely F-04!

[skippy]

so Howard .. knowing how bad my maths is .. how many to one would it be ?

 

Just a guess, but based on your experiment with Heritage and my own experience approximately 10 to 1.

[dooly]

 

picked this up tonight and i think we have a VP-011 , Fletcher F-04 what do you think

 

Definitely F-04!

 

thought that die crack and the date position was ok

 

think i paid a little to much for it but it's the kind of coin you just have to have when you find one

 

I see NGC have only one graded on a 55 .. dont know if any are done at the other place ? seems not to be that common for a easy cherry

 

and at only 2,019,000 WR its almost as uncommon as a 1875

[dooly]

so Howard .. knowing how bad my maths is .. how many to one would it be ?

 

Just a guess, but based on your experiment with Heritage and my own experience approximately 10 to 1.

 

seems low to what i see on ebay I wonder how many were in the 1871 to 1881 redeem of all previous minted 5C coins off 59,000.000+ minus the 35,300.000 which passed the mint and were put back into circulation and off course the 91,000+ which were melted during that period .. what an interesting series of coins this is .. could be because they were Rays coins and they were keeping the "new design" coins out from circulation ?

(thumbs u

[skippy]

Mintages don't tell the whole story. 67WR is more available than 75, just by experience. Probably has to do with the melting to which you referred.

 

TPG population data on shield nickel varieties is not very useful. Many of them have not been submitted, and many of the ones that have been are misattributed.

[dooly]

well my 67WR came today and i like it a lot

 

 

there seems to be something funky going on with one of the stars