What is Liver of Sulfer?

[Coincrazed74]

Hi I read in that other thread about Liver of Sulfur and how it artificially tones coins. What is it and how does it tone coins?? Forgive me if this is a stupid question.

 

CC

[wheat'swheats]

It is a potash and sulfur mixture which is used in the jewelry and metal industry to change(darken) the color of metal by means of a chemical reaction that the vapors have on different metals . especially silver and copper. It is a reaction very simular to the one used to blue a gun barrel,but you only expose the metal to the vapors not the liquid. The exposure usually causes a dark brown to black color, but with certain alloys will cause a rainbow effect or reds and blues.For this reason alone I would not put my money in "toned " coins. When I first started collecting over 50 years ago you would find a few legitimate toned coins, usually Morgans. These would sell at a slight premium over the normal morgans. As the price increased it seems the toned coins did also. I persolally think that the majority of the toned coins out there are AT. However that's just me. Some are indeed very lovely, but I could not tell a really good AT from a NT so I leave them all alone. And now when a coin who's grey sheet price is $165 and it sells for $2700 (toned) it makes me wonder. To each his own, if that what makes you happy have at it. I'll just sit back scratch my head and watch.

[Crohnos01]

It is a potash and sulfur mixture which is used in the jewelry and metal industry to change(darken) the color of metal by means of a chemical reaction that the vapors have on different metals . especially silver and copper. It is a reaction very simular to the one used to blue a gun barrel,but you only expose the metal to the vapors not the liquid. The exposure usually causes a dark brown to black color, but with certain alloys will cause a rainbow effect or reds and blues.For this reason alone I would not put my money in "toned " coins. When I first started collecting over 50 years ago you would find a few legitimate toned coins, usually Morgans. These would sell at a slight premium over the normal morgans. As the price increased it seems the toned coins did also. I persolally think that the majority of the toned coins out there are AT. However that's just me. Some are indeed very lovely, but I could not tell a really good AT from a NT so I leave them all alone. And now when a coin who's grey sheet price is $165 and it sells for $2700 (toned) it makes me wonder. To each his own, if that what makes you happy have at it. I'll just sit back scratch my head and watch.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself....I will bring out the lawn chair and watch the feeding frenzy on the toned coins...

[lehigh96]

What man does not understand, he fears; and what he fears, he tends to destroy.

--Unknown

 

So that is why people dip coins!

[wheat'swheats]

I do not fear, I am just not interested. Like I said to each his own. If that is your interest have at it...... enjoy........,I'll sit this one out and that will leave more for the ones who are interested. I started collecting around 1958, even then you could still find a bag of morgans stashed in small banks around the country, and occasionally in these bags you would find a few NT toned morgans. At the time all the experts said it was the sulfer dioxide in the cloth bags. Everybody was happy with that explanation, the coins sold and everyone went on their merry as happy a pigs in slop. Like I previously said these coins sold slightly over the normal coin price and that did not seem unusual under the circumstances. However these stashes of origional bagged morgans just are not turning up in the same preportion as the toned morgans, and now peace dollars, walkers,quarters, pennies dimes and nickels are turning up in numbers that just make me suspect. Again I say if you are happy great, I just do not want to fish in your pond.

[PerryHall]

What man does not understand, he fears; and what he fears, he tends to destroy.

--Unknown

 

So that is why people AT coins!

 

Fixed it for you.

[Coincrazed74]

Wow thanks you guys! You really answered my question!

On a different note, I would never buy a toned coin. In fact, when I was buying my 1916D Dime, I was offered an NGC G04 with pink, blue, and green

toning. I hated the look and though it was a deal, $800, I passed.

I collect rarity, not coins with colors on them. Toning CAN and DOES change over years.

 

CC

[e1cnr]

Liver of Sulfur is a yellow powder and if it comes into contact with a silver coin, the contact area becomes black.

 

I am curious if you like silver coins, how you keep them from coming into contact with anything that will cause chemical reaction on surface of coin - do you wrap them in 3 layers of aluminum foil?

 

and if you buy them and they are say Morgan dollars 140 years old, do you feel they have always been white, or did someone artificially remove a surface layer of the coin?

[physics-fan3.14]

Toned coins can be beautiful - we buy them as works of art. I appreciate white coins, but many (most) of them have been dipped if they are more than a hundred years old. Toning is a natural process, why not celebrate it? It takes a lot of studying and learning to understand toning, and there are numerous pitfalls, but it is worth it. The look of a coin that has been toned with liver of sulfur is extremely fake, such as the coin I posted in the other thread. This is one of the least convincing methods of ATing a coin available.

[Crohnos01]

I agree that natural toning can be beautiful. And I have several coins that have been in my family for the last 100 years, so I am relatively sure the toning is natural. However in each case of the aforementioned coins, the toning is a bronze or grey cast coloring on the coin. I'm not saying all the beautiful blues, greens, and yellows I see displayed here periodically aren't natural, but I have no frame of reference to compare them to in order to keep from buying a AT coin. Rather than accidentally promoting the actions of coin docs by buying their wares, I will just take up a sideline position and cheer loudly for those of you who score.

[Coincrazed74]

Toned coins can be beautiful - we buy them as works of art. I appreciate white coins, but many (most) of them have been dipped if they are more than a hundred years old. Toning is a natural process, why not celebrate it? It takes a lot of studying and learning to understand toning, and there are numerous pitfalls, but it is worth it. The look of a coin that has been toned with liver of sulfur is extremely fake, such as the coin I posted in the other thread. This is one of the least convincing methods of ATing a coin available.

Thanks Physics fan. I really liked that other thread, you especially are like a dictionary, you just hafta be opened up! So white coins were very likely dipped at one time? I didn't know that!

[James_OldeTowne]

I collect rarity, not coins with colors on them. Toning CAN and DOES change over years.

Let's do remember that this is even more true of untoned coins. In other words, "NonToning CAN and DOES change over years."

[wheat'swheats]

I think what you are trying to say is that all origional morgans, with the rare exception have a patina. Which, can also still have luster. I agree that an extremely white morgan or any older coin has probably been dipped, which to me is just as bad as AT color (toned)

[coinman_23885]

I collect rarity, not coins with colors on them. Toning CAN and DOES change over years.

Let's do remember that this is even more true of untoned coins. In other words, "NonToning CAN and DOES change over years."

 

I agree 100%; it is not unusual for some dipped coins (that were improperly prepared) to turn in the holders.

[RWB]

"Liver of sulfur" is the stuff your mother used to make the liver and onions stay fresh longer - usually until you ate your dinner!

[coinman_23885]

]Thanks Physics fan. I really liked that other thread, you especially are like a dictionary, you just hafta be opened up! So white coins were very likely dipped at one time? I didn't know that!

 

Just to clarify, older white coins without toning (i.e. blast white) were likely dipped at one time. There are some obvious exceptions such as some of the Morgan Dollars in the GSA Hoard, etc.

[JIM F.]

I'm waiting for the older TPG holders to yellow with age. Then we can discuss plastic exposure to UV.

[Kurtdog]

Toned coins can be beautiful - we buy them as works of art. I appreciate white coins, but many (most) of them have been dipped if they are more than a hundred years old. Toning is a natural process, why not celebrate it? It takes a lot of studying and learning to understand toning, and there are numerous pitfalls, but it is worth it. The look of a coin that has been toned with liver of sulfur is extremely fake, such as the coin I posted in the other thread. This is one of the least convincing methods of ATing a coin available.

My wife collects jewelry. More specifically, I buy it, she collects it. Anyway, as wheat'swheats said, liver of sulfur is used to tarnish jewelry. That's been that way probably for centuries. Personally, I think it's just like in the case of dips, it's all in the technique. Some are going to look terrible. Others, only your "coin doctor" is going to know for sure.

 

Part of the problem, I think, in understanding that is, there's very little experimental data on it, as most collectors are simply afraid to try it, much less, to post their results. That's what I think, anyway.

[Coincrazed74]

I agree. Testing techniques out on common pieces for learning purposes is really good to understand something. Much the same as knowing how an engine, radiator, etc. to tell what's wrong with your car.

[lehigh96]

It takes a lot of studying and learning to understand toning,

 

This was the reason I posted my original comment. It is fairly obvious that several people posting in this thread have not studied the subject and don't understand it.

[Oldtrader3]

I have to even discuss two silver slider halves which I really liked from the 1840's which I bought at auction a few years ago. These coins changed in the holder from deep gold and Cobalt toning to black and did it very fast within several months, despite being in a climate controlled safe. I am suspicious that these coins had been treated with liver of sulpher because of the speed which they changed colors to pure black but I can not prove it.

 

Two really great 170 year old collector coins (scarce ones at that) were ruined to what end?

[Coincrazed74]

That's awful OldTrader!! I'm sorry to hear that. Thick you can somehow clean tge black off and restore them to their old glory??

[Oldtrader3]

I asked a couple of dealers about it and they said send it to NCS for conservation but I did not want to take a chance on a Details holder because one of these halves was a Pop 1, No Drape, Overdate coin. I sold them, as is and lost money instead.

[Coincrazed74]

That sucks... stories like that scare me. I hope that never happens again...

[grip]

I asked a couple of dealers about it and they said send it to NCS for conservation but I did not want to take a chance on a Details holder because one of these halves was a Pop 1, No Drape, Overdate coin. I sold them, as is and lost money instead.

 

Why diden't you send it back to the TPG for review?

[WoodenJefferson]

Anything with a descriptive word like 'liver' in it can't be a good thing for coins.

[coinman1794]

I asked a couple of dealers about it and they said send it to NCS for conservation but I did not want to take a chance on a Details holder because one of these halves was a Pop 1, No Drape, Overdate coin. I sold them, as is and lost money instead.

 

Why diden't you send it back to the TPG for review?

 

That is what I would have done.

[RWB]

It originally was “liver of suffer.”

 

Early coin collectors liked toned coins, so they captured a philatelist (stamp collector), tied him down, sliced open his liver and stuck in their coins to tone naturally. After a few weeks, the coins were removed and they had nice toning. They burned sulfur to cover the odor of liver and onions. Over time, the expression was softened to “liver of sulfur” and this use of philatelists was abandoned….. Or so I read on the internet; it must be true.

 

 

[Conder101]

I'm waiting for the older TPG holders to yellow with age. Then we can discuss plastic exposure to UV.

Both PCGS and NGC have had a problem in the past with bad plastic that lacked the UV stablizer. On the PCGS slab (I forget the generation) the problem was with the clear insert ring that holds the coin. Over time they turned a distinct yellow green color. For NGC a batch of inserts for the NGC 5 generation turned a yellow cream color instead of the standard white. (The NGC slabs may have just been a batch of off-color inserts as all I have seen have been the same color and the color does not seem to be continuing to change. The PCGS inserts though do come with varying degrees of color intensity from a faint yellow to a definite yellow green.)