Spain wins lawsuit over shipwreck recovered coins.

[SkyMan]

Talk about getting screwed, the ~594,000 gold and silver coins worth ~ $500,000,000 that Odyssey Marine Exploration (OME) found on a galleon in 2007 must be returned to the Spanish government. OME not only gets nada, the ruling stated that the Spanish govt. didn't need to reimburse OME for preserving and storing the treasure. Here's a link to the article.

 

link

 

I totally agree with the end couple of sentences that in essence the Spanish government has hurt it's long term chances, as there is no question IMO that any treasure recovery in the future will definitely be off the books.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

I agree wholeheartedly that Spain is being short sighted. Moreover, I am surprised that the recovery firm wasn't compensated for its quantum meruit in recovering and conserving the coins.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"Thanks for finding our stuff. We misplaced it a while back, and had been looking for it."

[CoinPulsive PCM]

That is rediculous. The company that found all the treasure should file a lawsuit against Spain to reimburst them for their costs in the recovery. I have heard alot about spains issues with coins and treasure from their ships being found on the eastern US shoreline and they shouldn't be able to claim it and want it back. If the treasure was found off the coast of Portugal, was it found in international waters? If so, the people who discovered the treasure should be allowed to keep it. IMO, if Spain REALLY wanted this treasure, their gov't would have sent teams looking for it ! I personally have found 1700's coins off the coast of FL several times. After 2 hurricanes in 2009, I went diving with a metal detector about 75 yards off one of the beaches and found 14 coins. 2 gold and 12 silver.

Plain and simple: FInders Keepers!

-Dave.

[cpm9ball]

Hmm......a US judge......a federal court......sounds like politics to me. You can't trust any of those SOB's!

 

Chris

[RWB]

I suggest folks read the opinion first before deciding if the result was right or wrong.

 

(Personally, if Spain or any other country has made no effort to locate a sunken ship in international waters, then it belongs to the finders.)

[HCumberdale]

Spain needs the money - plain and simple. Their decision has nothing to do with what is "right" or "fair."

 

Look at their unemployment rate and their entitlement programs, combine that with a down economy and instability in the Euro zone....not really that surprising of a decision at all.

[cpm9ball]

Spain needs the money - plain and simple. Their decision has nothing to do with what is "right" or "fair."

 

Look at their unemployment rate and their entitlement programs, combine that with a down economy and instability in the Euro zone....not really that surprising of a decision at all.

 

Your honor,

 

I am suing this company in civil court because they are rich and I am poor, so based on need, you must rule in my favor.

 

Chris

[Buffalo Head]

Spain needs the money - plain and simple. Their decision has nothing to do with what is "right" or "fair."

 

Look at their unemployment rate and their entitlement programs, combine that with a down economy and instability in the Euro zone....not really that surprising of a decision at all.

 

Your honor,

 

I am suing this company in civil court because they are rich and I am poor, so based on need, you must rule in my favor.

 

Chris

 

Yes that about sums it up,eh? What a bunch of BS....

[TonerGuy]

I believe that the decision hinged on the fact that Spain claimed that the treasure was found on a military ship and based on that fact the cargo remained their property.

 

While unfair that Spain did not have to compensate the company for their work, it would set bad precedent.

 

 

[MorganMan]

Wait, wasn't it Spain's military who pilfered and plundered the Central and North American Indian's gold and silver. If we gonna go back 100 years, lets go back to the beginning.

 

Just another stupid judge in a corrupt legal system in this country.

 

 

MM

[TonerGuy]

You guys may want to read this... rather long but it explains in full detail why Spain won... It has nothing to do with the Judge or a "corrupt legal system."

 

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7m.htm

 

Here's an excerpt...

 

"Contemporary U.S. judicial history of the treatment of the sovereign wrecks of the United States begins with Hatteras, Inc. v. The U.S.S. HATTERAS,16 in which the claim of the salvor was denied. Hatteras, Inc., argued that the United States' neglect of the wreck for over one hundred years after its 1863 sinking amounted to abandonment. The Court stated "t is well settled that title to property of the United States cannot be divested by negligence, delay, laches, mistake or unauthorized actions by subordinate officials[,]" explaining further that U.S. government property may only be disposed in the manner prescribed by Congress.

 

In U.S. v. Steinmetz,17 the so-called Alabama-bell case, the purchaser in due course of the bell was deprived of possession by the United States' superior right in title. By his account Richard Steinnetz, an antique dealer, acquired the bell at a London gun show in 1979; it had reportedly been recovered from the 1864 wreck of CSS Alabama in 1936 by a diver who placed it in a bar in trade for drinking privileges. The bell came to the attention of Navy officials in 1990 when Mr. Steinmetz put it up for auction. After Mr. Steinmetz refused to turn the bell over to the Navy, the Government filed an action against him for its return. The Court determined that the United States was the successor sovereign to the Confederacy and had acquired all right and title to the property of the Confederate States of America including the Alabama and the bell, finding that it had not been abandoned.18

 

The next landmark case was that confirming ownership of the Juno and of LaGalga in the Kingdom of Spain.19 The two ships were lost on the Virginia coast in 1750 and 1802 respectively and lay undisturbed until they were reportedly found by Sea Hunt, Inc., in the late 1990s. Sea Hunt claimed a salvage award against them or in the alternative asked the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia to award title under the law of finds. Assuming the identity of the ships to be that claimed by Sea Hunt, the Court ruled that both vessels were the sovereign vessels, and that they had not been abandoned absent an express renunciation of ownership by the Kingdom of Spain. The Court further held that because Spain had expressly rejected salvage, Sea Hunt was not entitled to a salvage award."

[johnny9434]

I agree wholeheartedly that Spain is being short sighted. Moreover, I am surprised that the recovery firm wasn't compensated for its quantum meruit in recovering and conserving the coins.

I agree whole heartedly

[e1cnr]

what about the south american countries that were looted, or the aztecs who were massacred

[shirohniichan]

I reckon they'd get in trouble for "redepositing" the items on the ocean floor where they found them and then forgetting where exactly the location was.

[comicdonna]

I personally have found 1700's coins off the coast of FL several times. After 2 hurricanes in 2009, I went diving with a metal detector about 75 yards off one of the beaches and found 14 coins. 2 gold and 12 silver.

Plain and simple: FInders Keepers!

-Dave.

This is how I plan on spending much of my time, in a few years, during the winter months. Diving and looking for treasure.

[rainbow roosie]

Dump it back at the site.

[Buffalo Head]

what about the south american countries that were looted, or the aztecs who were massacred

 

YEAH!!!!!!

[CoinPulsive PCM]

In reply to Rainbow roosie- Are you saying to dump back the loot, to me or just about this post? I really don't plan on ever bringing those coins back to the beach where I found them for 2 reasons: 1- I'm not wasting gas to drive 3 hours to return something that seemed like national treasure when I first found it. 2- many of my convos at the bar have this sentence in them "I would buy all of you beer, if the bartender had change for a 1700's gold dubloon!"

 

Who here thinks that spain is just going to melt the gold down when they get it? I bet if that does happen, OUR treasury will buy it to make Gold eagles! IMO.

[HCumberdale]

I'm pretty sure they will end up selling most of it to museums and collectors. Melting it down would be rather foolish!!

[Timely]

Apparently, Peru is now saying Spain stole the coins from them back then and are now claiming rights to the treasure! Round & round it goes!

[Timely]

TAMPA - There is yet another twist in the international battle over a treasure trove of gold coins and other artifacts found by a Tampa company.

 

The country of Peru is asking the U.S. Supreme Court to stop the imminent transfer of the half-billion dollar treasure from the U.S. to Spain.

 

The gold and silver coins were discovered by Tampa-based Odyssey Marine Explorations in 2007. At the time, the find was estimated to be worth around $500 million to collectors, which would have made it the richest shipwreck in history.

 

Since then, Odyssey has been in a legal battle with Spain over who gets to keep the coins.

 

The U.S. Supreme Court denied a motion by Tampa's Odyssey Marine Exploration to stop the transfer, so Odyssey officials agreed to give the Spanish government access, and said the company would not oppose the efforts.

 

Now, Peru is saying that silver and gold was essentially stolen by the Spanish from the people of Peru centuries ago.

 

Peru is asking the U.S. Supreme Court not to allow Spain to take possession of the treasure.

 

The exact storage location of the treasure hasn't been disclosed, but handling and conservation of the coins was performed by a Sarasota-based company.

 

Plans for transferring it are shrouded in secrecy, but it is believed to be headed to MacDill Air Force Base, where Spanish planes will pick it up.

 

The plan was to hand over the coins this week. Spain is trying to work fast to get the treasure out of town.

 

It remains to be seen what the Supreme Court will do with the motion.

 

Read more: http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpps/news/peru%3A-spain-stole-it-first-odyssey-02222012_18164227#ixzz1nDgHl7Lm

 

[TonerGuy]

Interesting... If you watch the video the news makes a claim that the treasure is being held in a vault in Sarasota and they show the outside of NGC's HQs... but they dont say NGC...

 

 

[Chris1976]

The exact storage location of the treasure hasn't been disclosed, but handling and conservation of the coins was performed by a Sarasota-based company.

 

 

 

 

NCS maybe?

[johnny9434]

Dump it back at the site.

dear spain, you want the silver there it is way down there. have a nice day

[Arizonadesertrat]

That Spanish warship sank in international waters during a battle with the British. This fact changes everything, because there is an international convention (that the U.S. and many other countries signed) declaring such shipwrecks off-limits to independent salvagers. Ships that sank as a result of natural causes (e.g., hurricanes) are different animals. This is why Mel Fisher was able to make out like a bandit when his crew found the Atocha. What I don't understand is why OME would spend so much effort and expense to continue salvage operations once they identified the warship. The odds that OME would prevail in the courts were pretty slim.

[CoinPulsive PCM]

The exact storage location of the treasure hasn't been disclosed, but handling and conservation of the coins was performed by a Sarasota-based company.

 

 

 

 

NCS maybe?

 

If you think hard about where the coins are being stored, NGC or NCS are what I conclude with. The NGC building is probably the best place for the treasure untill it goes to spain...or peru..or fort knox, who knows what legal blahblah will be puked up next. I don't understand how Peru can say those coins are theirs. I am more about US history than world history, but was Peru part of Spain at one time or something? This has become more interesting by the day.

-Dave

[e1cnr]

who is going to pay NCS fee?

[Conder101]

I would say that Odyssey owes the bill. They are the ones who contracted with NCS for the conservation.

 

but was Peru part of Spain at one time or something?

Not really part of it, but they were a colony of and were ruled by Spain. Yes the natives were enslaved and yes the silver from the area was taken away by Spain. that is what happens when you fight a war and lose. What you had isn't yours anymore, it's theirs. And being theirs they took it home with them. Sorry I don't see Peru as having a claim.

[WoodenJefferson]

From what I can gather, the silver coins were and still are stored in white plastic pails filled with sea water to keep any change from happening, weren't there like 10,000 buckets?

 

1 kg = 2.2 lbs