Why do Morgan dollars tone differently than Peace dollars?

[e1cnr]

Does it have to do with design, metal composition, striking pressure, planchet wash?

 

 

I have read many things in the past - but in the last 50 years, storage options have been available for both.

[Raisethis2]

I heard/read that it's simply the way the devices on a given coin trap the sulfur which does the toning. On some coins it escapes the immediate atmosphere easier than others. Could be way off base however.

[BillJones]

I'd say that it has to do with how the coins were stored after they were struck. Many Morgan dollars spent years in mint bags while the Peace dollars spent less time in them. It also could have something to do with the stuff the mint used to wash the planchets before the coins were struck and the what was used to bleach the bags that were used to store the Morgan dollars.

 

I don't ever recall seeing a "monster toned" 1921 Morgan dollar which was made was made during the Peace dollar era. Has anyone ever seen a "monster toned" 1921 Morgan dollar?

[MarkFeld]

I'd say that it has to do with how the coins were stored after they were struck. Many Morgan dollars spent years in mint bags while the Peace dollars spent less time in them. It also could have something to do with the stuff the mint used to wash the planchets before the coins were struck and the what was used to bleach the bags that were used to store the Morgan dollars.

 

I don't ever recall seeing a "monster toned" 1921 Morgan dollar which was made was made during the Peace dollar era. Has anyone ever seen a "monster toned" 1921 Morgan dollar?

 

I've seen a number of attractively toned 1921 Morgans, but no "monsters". And in almost every case, the toning was, at a minimum, at least lightly mottled.

[RWB]

...mice...

 

There is a past thread on this subject. "Search" is your friend; "Find" is your close friend; "Found" is your brother.

[e1cnr]

...mice...

 

There is a past thread on this subject. "Search" is your friend; "Find" is your close friend; "Found" is your brother.

 

 

search is not my friend (at least not here, not now, not ever)

 

- please find the thread you remember and add to the end to bring it up to the current page or post a link

[coinman_23885]

RWB created an excellent thread on this recently. It can be found here . As always, thanks for the excellent research RWB.

[Buffalo Head]

The Peace dollar has always seemed to me to be a much brighter coin than the Morgan. I know the alloy is the same, maybe we mixed the recipe better & in a cleaner environment? We do get better at things, I hope. And then the storage of our collector coins have improved with plastic & cellophane rather than cardboard or an old sock. These are just my thoughts.....Joe

[TonerGuy]

Here's some of my post from the other thread...

 

I have been researching and collecting toned Peace $ (pretty much exclusively) for the better part of a decade. I have looked at tens of thousands of Peace $ in that time and have handled some really magnificently toned Peace $. The toned Peace $ I have handled ranged from the standard golds/yellows to vibrant rainbows and even neon colors. Most of the toning I have come across on Peace $ usually comes from aftermarket holders and albums, not canvas bags. There are even standard colors and patterns that occur due to storage in different albums (Raymond, Whitman and Dansco). Different plastic holders impart different colors and a favorite of mine are those 20th Century Coin collections in frames... two Peace $ I found raw were completely neon toned on the reverse from the cardboard backing.

 

The Redfield holders can do a nice job on Peace $, though it is rather rare to find a colorful example.

 

I have handled a few bag toned examples as well but these are the true unicorns of the toned Peace $ world. Two examples that were completely dimpled across the obverse and two that were rainbow crescent toned like a Morgan would be.

 

Nicely toned Peace $ exist, it just a coin that requires extreme patience and dedication to the hunt. Most of the best coins that have passed through my hands have come from small B&Ms not big name dealers.

 

All in all, I would have to say it was the composition of the metal that might have been slightly different. As others in the thread have pointed out, monster toned 21 Morgans are rare and the ones that I have seen have similar toning to Peace $.

 

Does anyone know if the source of the silver changed by the 1920s ? Or did the Peace $ and 21 Morgans come from older Morgans that were melted down ?

 

[lehigh96]

I think we always assume that the toning found on Morgan Dollars is simply the result of the canvas bags and the time spent stored in those bags. And while the Peace Dollars spent less time in bags, it seems to me that they had ample time to develop toning. This led me to think about what factor could have been different between the storage conditions. The only thing I could think of is air conditioning. When did banks start using central air conditioning?

 

If the Morgan Dollars were subjected to hot & humid summers in those bags for decades while that time period was limited for Peace Dollars due to the advent of air conditioning, the change in atmospheric storage conditions might help explain the obvious difference in toning results.

 

Just a thought!

[Conder101]

Or did the Peace $ and 21 Morgans come from older Morgans that were melted down ?

The provisions of the Pitman Act required newly mined silver. Remember this was at least in part a bailout to the silver mine owners.

 

Something else that might be worth considering is the air quality In the 1870s the major power sources were probably steam powered by coal and lighting was gas. By the 20's and 30's you were probably seeing a lot more electricity generated by more remote sources. Air quality was probably a lot better with much lower levels of sulfur compounds.

[JIM F.]

I'm not convinced that canvas bags are the source of toning. I say this because we know for a fact that the Morgan GSA dollars released in the 1970s had been stored in these bags for close to 100 years, yet monster toned GSA dollars are pretty much non-existent, and the vast majority of GSA dollars I have seen are blast white.

 

I propose the theory that the Morgan dollar planchets have more trace metal impurities. Don't be confused that although the silver dollars are reported to contain 90% silver and 10% copper, they will also contain other trace metals. Even today's high purity silver contains trace metals including lead, bismuth, iron, zinc, platinum, palladium, and others.

 

My gut feeling is that it is the trace metals that contribute to so-called "monster toning" This theory could be tested, but I doubt anyone would want to sacrifice their monster toned Morgan and pay the lab fees associated with such testing. Especially since it is just a theory.

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I'm not convinced that canvas bags are the source of toning. I say this because we know for a fact that the Morgan GSA dollars released in the 1970s had been stored in these bags for close to 100 years, yet monster toned GSA dollars are pretty much non-existent, and the vast majority of GSA dollars I have seen are blast white.

 

I propose the theory that the Morgan dollar planchets have more trace metal impurities. Don't be confused that although the silver dollars are reported to contain 90% silver and 10% copper, they will also contain other trace metals. Even today's high purity silver contains trace metals including lead, bismuth, iron, zinc, platinum, palladium, and others.

 

My gut feeling is that it is the trace metals that contribute to so-called "monster toning" This theory could be tested, but I doubt anyone would want to sacrifice their monster toned Morgan and pay the lab fees associated with such testing. Especially since it is just a theory.

 

 

 

 

You might not be convinced, but it's a fact that much of the toning seen on Morgan Dollars is from their storage in canvas bags.And In a number of cases,"textile toning" even displays the pattern of the bag on the coin.

[JIM F.]

I'm not convinced that canvas bags are the source of toning. I say this because we know for a fact that the Morgan GSA dollars released in the 1970s had been stored in these bags for close to 100 years, yet monster toned GSA dollars are pretty much non-existent, and the vast majority of GSA dollars I have seen are blast white.

 

I propose the theory that the Morgan dollar planchets have more trace metal impurities. Don't be confused that although the silver dollars are reported to contain 90% silver and 10% copper, they will also contain other trace metals. Even today's high purity silver contains trace metals including lead, bismuth, iron, zinc, platinum, palladium, and others.

 

My gut feeling is that it is the trace metals that contribute to so-called "monster toning" This theory could be tested, but I doubt anyone would want to sacrifice their monster toned Morgan and pay the lab fees associated with such testing. Especially since it is just a theory.

 

 

 

 

You might not be convinced, but it's a fact that much of the toning seen on Morgan Dollars is from their storage in canvas bags.And In a number of cases,"textile toning" even displays the pattern of the bag on the coin.

 

I did not mean to dispute that the bags may be a contributing cause, and I am aware of textile toning. So let me modify my statement such that I am not convinced the canvas bags are the sole cause of toning. Nonetheless, metal impurities are worthy of consideration for those interested in further investigation of this topic. A scanning electron microscope (SEM) inspection might (and I stress "might") provide some insight without causing any damage to coins.

[TonerGuy]

I tend to agree with Jim... The silver in Morgans might just be slightly different in composition than Peace $... I suppose that someone with access to a lab can compare the trace metals in the post 1921 Morgans & Peace $ to the 19th century coins...

[JIM F.]

I tend to agree with Jim... The silver in Morgans might just be slightly different in composition than Peace $... I suppose that someone with access to a lab can compare the trace metals in the post 1921 Morgans & Peace $ to the 19th century coins...

 

Correct, a scientific method can be applied. For an analysis (destructive), labs like to have about 8 grams of material. If one were to do this, three (3) each of the following should provide some insight as to whether or not this is a contributing factor:

 

A) Samples from heavily toned 19th century Morgans

B) Samples from untoned, uncleaned 19th century Morgans

C) Samples from untoned Peace Dollars

 

The last time I sent material samples to a lab for analysis they charged several hundred dollars per sample. One could take samples by drilling holes -- with enough publicity NGC might even slab the holed coins in special holders.

 

Anyway, without applying a scientific method there is mostly speculation on this topic.

 

[Kurtdog]

I'm not convinced that canvas bags are the source of toning. I say this because we know for a fact that the Morgan GSA dollars released in the 1970s had been stored in these bags for close to 100 years, yet monster toned GSA dollars are pretty much non-existent, and the vast majority of GSA dollars I have seen are blast white

Jim, might not that be because the GSA "graders" considered tarnished examples circulated? Thus, you're not likely to find those in the "Uncirculated Silver Dollar" holders, right? I know back in that day there were a number of collectors who considered tarnished coins circulated, even, environmentally-damaged. That's why the dealers dipped so many back then. Carry that thinking over to the GSA "graders," who, of course, "graded" in that day. Look for your tarnished GSA Morgan Dollars in the "Silver Dollar" holders. I know I've seen them, there. Hey, FWIW...

[RWB]

The combination of canvas bags and storage conditions. By the time Peace dollar were atruck, nearly all stroage vaults were dry with metal floors and walls. Earlier vaults had earth or stone floors, plaster or wood walls and were damp to the point of bags rotting. (Suggest reading the earlier thread.)

[PerryHall]

The combination of canvas bags and storage conditions. By the time Peace dollar were atruck, nearly all stroage vaults were dry with metal floors and walls. Earlier vaults had earth or stone floors, plaster or wood walls and were damp to the point of bags rotting. (Suggest reading the earlier thread.)

 

Is it possible the composition or materials of the storage bags changed from the Morgan era to the Peace dollar era?

[Dcoin]

As Morgan $ are widely more collected that Peace $, maybe the percentage of people-assisted toning is also greater in the Morgan series.

 

As a result we see not only more toned coins overall, but also more variety of toning patterns.

 

Just a thought.

[RWB]

I'm sure there were small changes to the canvas used for making bags, but we have no way to determine what the changes were. Spcifications for buying cloth were the same over many decades, but manufacturing changes occurred.

 

Large numbers of "tanished" dollars were melted because they were unsuitable for circulation.

[Oldtrader3]

The amount and type of sulphur that is present in the cloth of the bags. Also the relative humidity conditions and temperature variations of the vault where they were stored.

 

Also, the mints did not alloy well, especially mixing to evenly disperse metal elements and refining quality of the minerals until the 1890's. Purity was sometimes an issue, particularly in the branch mints. Sometimes they could not maintain 99.98 purity due to contaminents and crude processing equipment.

[coinman1794]

I think there are many factors at work, from alloys, to planchet rinses, to storage methods that may have been different than with Morgans.

 

I also think the question is somewhat over-analyzed, as it is very common for certain series in the 20th century to be rare with color, especially from the 1920s and 1930s. What about monster Standing Liberty Quarters, compared to Barbers and Washingtons, for example?