The Deed Is Done

[jackson64]

NGC has followed through on their financial decision.......

 

a reprint of my final journal post.

I've been waiting to see.....

 

Well NGC has gone ahead with their business scheme to banish the PCGS coins from the World Registry. First let me say that- of course it is NGC's site and of course they have full right to do anything they choose with their company and registry.

 

I had held off with posting a journal with my reaction until they actually did the deed. I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt that they may change their minds and put the collectors ahead of the almighty dollar. Now that it is done I can say that I am quite displeased by their decision--and even more displeased by the condescending and lame explanation that they gave.

 

I would have been more accepting if they had flat out said, " this is a purely financial decision". " We at NGC feel that at this time we are in a unique and strong position to establish a monopolistic dominance in world coin grading and have decided to eliminate PCGS coins from the registry for the purpose of ensuring that the bulk dealer submissions will be sent to us and that the growing TPG business worldwide will look to NGC for the lion's share of its certifications." Something l;ike that..after all, the truth is easier to swallow than when people pee down your neck and tell you it's raining. ( it's too confusing to determine varieties and attributions??? really?? just use Krause as a standard and if PCGS criteria differ THEN you disqualify the coin)

 

Anyhow, this does affect many, many of us. I spent a couple of thousand last year to finally bring my Canadian $2 Twonies up to the #1 registry slot-- it is now dropped down to #4. You see, 2 of the rarer, low mintage gold coins in the series I bought in PCGS slabs--simply because they rarely come onto the market and when they do already slabbed in a 69 or better you gotta grab THE COIN no matter the slab it's in.

 

Secondly, I have a #1 Canadian proof dime set that has been #1 for 4+ years and was 36 out of 39 coins complete--now it will never be complete. You see, not only do I need the final 3 dates but now there are also 2 PCGS coins that will never be listed in their slots. I won't spend $30 to cross $20 coins and neither will I buy second copies of coins I already posess--so a set that has been years in the making will never be seen as complete on the registry.

 

There are other smaller sets also with PCGS coins in them--I already have eliminated 6 sets completely from the registry and am considering the removal of my 3 #1 Bahamas sets since those sets also will never be seen as complete on the registry.

 

I guess I can be satisfied with knowing that the sets are complete and also, even though my7 sets my not be ranked #1-- the reality is that I'll be the owner of the #$1 set of coins in the category.

 

Sadly, there will now be dozens and dozens of sets in this registry ranked as #1 that are not even close to the sets that fellow members own--of coins t5hat is. So this is a sad day for the world coin registry-- it is the day when a #1 ranking no longer means the #1 set of coins-- it only means that you have the most paper labels with an NGC logo.

 

It is also disheartening that I have been so loyal to NGC through the years..even with drops and cuts in services and membership benefits just as they have raised costs and gotten lax on turnaround times. I have never complained when I sent in tokens or medals that they had previously slabbed with, "ineligible type" but then find my submission returned unslabbed but they kept my money. Also dozens of coins that were bodybagged and not graded-which is what I paid for- but again they kept the fees ( coincidentally almost all get slabbed on resubmission). Paying postage both ways on 4 seperate occasions to get mislabeled coins or damaged slabs exchanged-- never without complaint.

 

I did all of this-- even knowing that my coins would have a 12-15% GREATER VALUE IN A PCGS SLAB- at the same grade. I will not spend a dime crossing my coins into slabs that will REDUCE their value-- I may have been a loyal lackey for these years but I will not just throw money away.

 

There is another alternative. I COULD CROSS TO PCGS. The difference in increase of value in a PCGS slab could offset some of the costs of crossing and then I could list my sets as completed in the PCGS registry. I'll have to give that some thought though. I'm actually leaning toward selling everything now except my Half Dollar sets-- in fact, I'm taking offers on all of my World coins ( although you now can't see which coins I actually have in my collections).

 

Oh well, I have no doubt that NGC will profit well from this decision and that the few dozen of us who will now be quitting the world coin registry, well we will not matter much in the big financial picture.

 

For a picture to accompany my journal--here are my 2 25th anniversary silver eagles still in their unopened box. I have been struggling with what to do with them. I have finally decided to stick with my principles ( even if it resembles the old, "cut off your nose to spite your face" cliche). I will not be sending them to NGC- or any more money to them. I will send them to PCGS, even though the likelihood of getting a bunch of 70's is considerably less than with NGC...I am truly saddened that it has come to this, maybe it is time to put aside this hobby anyhow. Between the mint's ridiculous expansion of offerings, the burgeoning amount of counterfeits from China of classic coins, more emphasis put on labels than coins, "First Strikes" that aren't, sour grapes and resentments when registry awards are announced, scammers on ebay, auction houses charging 15% to buy coins, 15% to sell them, TPG's charging $30 per coin to glance at them for 3 to 5 seconds ( this is a fact disclosed by several graders themselves), paying extra for "Earlybird" grading process and then getting the coins returned at a longer wait than the "cheapo" $18 per coin submission rate/tier-BUT NOT GETTING REFUNDED THE DIFFERENCE ( isn't this just plain stealing when you charge extra for an expedited service but then don't expedite it and still keep the money???)

 

I'm sick of it, it's time to enjoy my sailing, build a greenhouse so that I can garden in the winter, spend extra time with the granddaughter and reading my Bible. Maybe take that money spent on coins and take that dream trip through Europe now that the Euro is crashing and travel there is cheaper than it has been in decades...lots of things to fill thye time I spent on coin collecting. Most of them will enrich my life far more also.

 

So in the end, thank you NGC for the past years of enjoyment and good luck with your new position as a hard-line, no-nonsense, dollar first company. I'm sure that you'll be very successful. Maybe this is just the incentive I needed to get my priorities back into order and reset my focus on God, family and spending my money on living instead of objects........

 

[comicdonna]

I hope you enjoy your other hobbies.

[James_OldeTowne]

My only real question is: Why does any grading company hold so much sway over your enjoyment of coins?

 

It is possible you were not in the hobby you thought you were in. Maybe you are collecting slabs, rather than coins?

 

I mean all of the above in the friendliest, most heartfelt way imaginable, as you have always been one of my favorite members, and I hate to see you leave.

[jom]

My only real question is: Why does any grading company hold so much sway over your enjoyment of coins?

 

It is possible you were not in the hobby you thought you were in. Maybe you are collecting slabs, rather than coins?

 

I mean all of the above in the friendliest, most heartfelt way imaginable, as you have always been one of my favorite members, and I hate to see you leave.

 

I hope you get a good response to this...as I'd like to know as well. Because I see that much of coin collecting "enjoyment" seem to be based on "grading" or "value". If you look at many of the subjects discussed on the message boards a proportionately high number of threads are about grading. I've always found that odd.

 

jom

[Schatzy]

My only real question is: Why does any grading company hold so much sway over your enjoyment of coins?

 

It is possible you were not in the hobby you thought you were in. Maybe you are collecting slabs, rather than coins?

 

I mean all of the above in the friendliest, most heartfelt way imaginable, as you have always been one of my favorite members, and I hate to see you leave.

 

I agree 100%!!

[$ilverHawk]

Why leave the Collectors Society? You have many members that look forward to your posts and insights. It would be a shame to lose your contributions to our forums.

 

I do understand your frustration with the recent policies adopted by NGC with regards to the World Coin Registries. I do not collect World Coins, but I did withdraw 6 US coin sets from the registry because I became convinced that NGC had made a bad decision. More importantly, no one needs a TPG to validate their collecting interests.

 

I wish you well on whatever direction you choose.

 

Carl

[bsshog40]

My only real question is: Why does any grading company hold so much sway over your enjoyment of coins?

 

It is possible you were not in the hobby you thought you were in. Maybe you are collecting slabs, rather than coins?

 

I mean all of the above in the friendliest, most heartfelt way imaginable, as you have always been one of my favorite members, and I hate to see you leave.

 

I agree 100%!!

Ditto!

[DirtyGoldMan]

My only real question is: Why does any grading company hold so much sway over your enjoyment of coins?

 

It is possible you were not in the hobby you thought you were in. Maybe you are collecting slabs, rather than coins?

 

I mean all of the above in the friendliest, most heartfelt way imaginable, as you have always been one of my favorite members, and I hate to see you leave.

Word.

[TwoKopeiki]

It's not about slabs, it's about treatment of loyal customers. Changing a major service without as much as taking a minute to answer questions and address concerns from long-term customers. Just a bad experience.

 

In any case. What's done is done and there's no point in beating a dead horse.

[Walkerfan]

It sucks, there's no doubt, but I agree that there is NOTHING that could get me to stop my love and enjoyment of coins.......not PCGS NOR NGC, even if I had to do it without a registry of ANY KIND.....I still would FOR SURE.. I also would not give up on the wealth of info and friendships that I have made and found on these boards.

[Catbert]

I'm sick of it, it's time to enjoy my sailing, build a greenhouse so that I can garden in the winter, spend extra time with the granddaughter and reading my Bible. Maybe take that money spent on coins and take that dream trip through Europe now that the Euro is crashing and travel there is cheaper than it has been in decades...lots of things to fill thye time I spent on coin collecting. Most of them will enrich my life far more also.

 

So in the end, thank you NGC for the past years of enjoyment and good luck with your new position as a hard-line, no-nonsense, dollar first company. I'm sure that you'll be very successful. Maybe this is just the incentive I needed to get my priorities back into order and reset my focus on God, family and spending my money on living instead of objects........

 

So, take a positive view of these events and realize you can break the powerful grip the registry had on you. Achieve that balance you can now discover with other more important things in life. Maybe in a little while you can look back on this post and reflect how unimportant this stuff really is in the big scheme of things.

 

Good luck!

[Oldtrader3]

This hobby is always tied to the intinsic value of the coin for several reasons:

-You have to buy the coin in the first place and these coins keep costing more as time passes.

-The coin having some intrinsic worth has a bearing on the will to do this in the first place.

--The augument that collecting is strictly an historical and entertainment endevor without the consideration of some cash-out value which is worth doing, would make it not worth doing.

-Half of this hobby is dealers and they surely are not doing this solely for love of the collector. In fact only a dealer could think up a device whereby collectors are not supposed care about the value of their coins. Get real!

 

Of course the possible sale value has a bearing on the will to purchase and own the coin. Disassociating value from coin collecting is counterintuitive but I guess dealers do believe that we are stupid!.

[WoodenJefferson]

To me, a die hard collector will never think of coin collecting as a competitive hobby, but as an off shoot of numismatics in general, registry collecting is pure competition which is always governed by rules. In order to participate, everyone follows the rules even as they change.

 

I don't fully understand your angst because the registry never interested me and I have not participated, nor do I intend to. It's unfortunate that these actions have created a rift in something that you so enjoyed. Things change with or with out our approval, always have and always will.

 

Good luck in your future endeavors.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Woody, that's you and that is mostly me. I do not have the will, interest or assets to play that game anymore. However look around here (at say) the Roosie collectors who will wait in the weeds for two years to get a dime that they want from a competitor. A lot of this hobby is ego and money feuled into a hot fire and competition and any level. Those who ignore that collecting fury and drive are missing the point.

[nunfa0]

I was annoyed at first about this whole saga, but then I remembered why I started collecting coins in the first place. It had nothing to do with points or investment and everything to do with the love of coins. I realised that I too had gotten hooked into the registry illness and had become obsessed with the slabs and not the coins. Now I can again feel the joy of buying the coin and not the plastic so for that I say thankyou to NGC and three of the last 5 coins I have bought have been RAW!!

[James_OldeTowne]

It's not about slabs, it's about treatment of loyal customers. Changing a major service without as much as taking a minute to answer questions and address concerns from long-term customers. Just a bad experience.

Why is it a "major service"? I guess you must be speaking from your personal experience, being someone who (I presume) participates in the registry. But the service is only as "major" as you allow it to be. As others have mentioned, there is no service whatsoever that PCGS or NGC can change that would affect my enjoyment of coin collecting in the slightest.

 

It is true that I have never had even a milligram of interest in any type of "registry", and I'm sure that changes one's perception. I just think it's possible, but not particularly wise, to let "them" control "you".... when vice versa is always an option.

[VDBCoins]

I got news for you guys. All of my US coins in PCGS holders, or most of em anyway, have disappeared from my Registry Sets. Probably some incompetent NGC programmer who was in the same club as the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who made the World Coin decision. This is a moot point for me now anyways, as I am deleting ALL my sets this morning. Good bye to all, and good luck to everyone, even including those at NGC with an IQ over 75.

[VDBCoins]

Done

[Schatzy]

I got news for you guys. All of my US coins in PCGS holders, or most of em anyway, have disappeared from my Registry Sets. Probably some incompetent NGC programmer who was in the same club as the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who made the World Coin decision. This is a moot point for me now anyways, as I am deleting ALL my sets this morning. Good bye to all, and good luck to everyone, even including those at NGC with an IQ over 75.

 

All of my coins are still in the Registry. I have over 30 PCGS coins.

[TwoKopeiki]

Why is it a "major service"? I guess you must be speaking from your personal experience, being someone who (I presume) participates in the registry. But the service is only as "major" as you allow it to be. As others have mentioned, there is no service whatsoever that PCGS or NGC can change that would affect my enjoyment of coin collecting in the slightest.

 

It is true that I have never had even a milligram of interest in any type of "registry", and I'm sure that changes one's perception. I just think it's possible, but not particularly wise, to let "them" control "you".... when vice versa is always an option.

 

It's a major service because it has large community participation. I was there at the beginning of the World competitive registry and helped define some of the sets, as did a lot of other world coin collectors. Quite a few of us were active promoters from that point on. Our opinions were solicited when NGC wanted to be competitive and create world registry to attract additional collectors, but completely ignored when a significant change to this service was decided.

 

Oh, and James, if both PCGS and NGC decided to remove forums it would not affect your enjoyment of this hobby? I find that hard to believe coming from someone with over 13,000 posts.

[bsshog40]

I don't collect world coins so this hasn't affected my registries, but to tell you the truth, even if it did it would not turn me away from the hobby I enjoy soo much. I will never reach number one spots and that's not really my goal anyway. I actually enjoy the registry as an inventory for some of my series. I guess if I looked at the registry as a competition of fellow collectors then I would be able to comprehend some of ya'lls reactions. What I don't understand is what started you into collecting before the registries were even an issue? Did you collect in the hopes of competition? or did you collect because you enjoyed collecting as a hobby? The TPG's are a business just like any other business. They look after themselves. The registries were created by this business as an extra incentive for collectors to display thier coins and a little competion. They accepted PCGS coins for a long time which should show people that they were'nt all about the almighty dollar. PCGS didn't do this and I'm sure if you started knocking thier rules and company like most of you have here, you'd be gone or the thread would be poofed. I just don't understand all this talk of quitting when you still have the forum to show off your collections. Afterall, do you collect for you or to impress others??

[Kenneth F]

I don't collect world coins so this hasn't affected my registries, but to tell you the truth, even if it did it would not turn me away from the hobby I enjoy soo much. I will never reach number one spots and that's not really my goal anyway. I actually enjoy the registry as an inventory for some of my series. I guess if I looked at the registry as a competition of fellow collectors then I would be able to comprehend some of ya'lls reactions. What I don't understand is what started you into collecting before the registries were even an issue? Did you collect in the hopes of competition? or did you collect because you enjoyed collecting as a hobby? The TPG's are a business just like any other business. They look after themselves. The registries were created by this business as an extra incentive for collectors to display thier coins and a little competion. They accepted PCGS coins for a long time which should show people that they were'nt all about the almighty dollar. PCGS didn't do this and I'm sure if you started knocking thier rules and company like most of you have here, you'd be gone or the thread would be poofed. I just don't understand all this talk of quitting when you still have the forum to show off your collections. Afterall, do you collect for you or to impress others??

 

Agree.

[James_OldeTowne]

Oh, and James, if both PCGS and NGC decided to remove forums it would not affect your enjoyment of this hobby? I find that hard to believe coming from someone with over 13,000 posts.

I was referring to the "coin collecting" hobby, not the "posting online" hobby !

[Conder101]

Oh, and James, if both PCGS and NGC decided to remove forums it would not affect your enjoyment of this hobby? I find that hard to believe coming from someone with over 13,000 posts.

Probably wouldn't affect me much. Got banned on PCGS with over 13,000 posts, still doing fine. If NGC folded, there are other forums. If they all folded I still have my coins and my books and my specialized publications from the organizations I belong to. I'm happy, the forums are just something extra.

[TwoKopeiki]

I guess it's a difference of opinion, James. To me, knowledge sharing is a part of coin collecting. But based on the content of your posts it appears that you really do have a "posting online hobby".

 

I'm done with this thread. If you want to continue this discussion with me, feel free to send a PM.

 

Cheers,

 

Roman.

[Schatzy]

You will hear a lot more crying from the 'it is no big deal' crowd when they exclude PCGS coins from the US sets. I suspect half of them have coins in for grading, or are afraid to upset NGC by voicing their concerns.

 

Augustus

 

Not Me!! I collect for only 1 reason and that is because I enjoy the hobby. PCGS and NGC could both delete there registry and I would still keep collecting.

 

IMO...you were simply collecting for the wrong reason.

[bsshog40]

You will hear a lot more crying from the 'it is no big deal' crowd when they exclude PCGS coins from the US sets. I suspect half of them have coins in for grading, or are afraid to upset NGC by voicing their concerns.

 

Augustus

 

Not Me!! I collect for only 1 reason and that is because I enjoy the hobby. PCGS and NGC could both delete there registry and I would still keep collecting.

 

IMO...you were simply collecting for the wrong reason.

I agree with jaime also.

"or are afraid to upset NGC by voicing their concerns." This statement is far from the truth. I can't count the threads I've seen where someone is bashing NGC's ability to grade coins, etc.... and NGC has always let people voice thier opinions with no reprocussions. I respect them for that and I'm sure others do also!

 

[Schatzy]

Not Me!! I collect for only 1 reason and that is because I enjoy the hobby. PCGS and NGC could both delete there registry and I would still keep collecting.

 

IMO...you were simply collecting for the wrong reason.

 

Sorry. Sometimes I forget which Jaime I am talking to.

 

"Set Description:

My goal for this set is to get the 1955 - 1964 in PF69UC. I only have the 1956 and 1955 to complete this goal!! My other goal for this set is to get the 1950, 1953 & 1954 in ultra cameo. These coins don't become available very often so for now I am playing a waiting game. I have also been working hard on my toned proof roosevelt set. I am in the quest to build a 100 coin set where I will make a custom set with professional pictures. As of this writing I am 68 of 100. My goal for the completion is the deadline for the 2012 registry awards.

 

If you have any coins for sale that will help me upgrade my set please let me know. Thanks!!

 

Happy Collecting,

Jaime "

 

Okay your point!! I have 68 toned coins that aren't even on the registry. What's wrong with goals!! I am making a custom set not a competitive set!!

 

Here is my set so far all on an excel spreadsheet!!

 

[bsshog40]

"or are afraid to upset NGC by voicing their concerns." This statement is far from the truth. I can't count the threads I've seen where someone is bashing NGC's ability to grade coins, etc.... and NGC has always let people voice thier opinions with no reprocussions. I respect them for that and I'm sure others do also!

 

Don't take it personally Bobby.

 

NGC changed the rules of the game at half-time. There are a lot of things they could have done differently, rather than giving collectors 15 days to crossover.

 

Many collectors here gave NGC a lot of ideas on how to soften the blow, or adjust the registry. NGC couldn't even be bothered to respond - other than saying it was a financially motivated decision.

 

Now many of our friends have left the registry, and the registry is no longer a true indication of the coins that are out there.

 

Anyone who is apathetic to this, please see the above quote - because it applies.

 

Augustus

I'm not in your shoes my friend so I'm unable to completely understand all of the specifics. I still hope that not everyone changes thier attitude towards the hobby as the reward should be in your own eyes instead of the eyes of registry competitors.

[coinman_23885]

NGC couldn't even be bothered to respond - other than saying it was a financially motivated decision.

 

I never recall NGC saying that this was a financially motivated decision. Rather, the stated reason was that NGC and PCGS often use different attributions/designations, making it difficult to compare the coins fairly. As indicated, this restricted their ability to offer new sets/categories. This seems rational to me. I am willing to bet that many of those griping over the new NGC only policy are also griping about the limited availability of competitive set categories for many coins. While I can certainly understand the frustration, it doesn't warrant the NGC bashing that is ubiquitous on the forums.

 

Finally, with regards to financial motivations, why shouldn't NGC promote their product? The putative premium (depending of series and grade) of some PCGS coins over NGC coins can largely be attributed to marketing. PCGS, through the registry and its use of market makers and promotion of the sight unseen market, has done an excellent job at promoting/marketing its product. Why shouldn't NGC similarly promote its market share, especially in an area where it has achieved virtually complete dominance? Just my .

 

Edited to add: Even though I participate in the U.S. registry program, I would say the same thing if NGC extended the policy to these sets.