Are this Draped Bust Dollar and PCGS holder genuine?

[MarkFeld]

Ebay listing

 

Thanks for your opinions.

[physics-fan3.14]

I don't see anything that immediately alerts me to it, but I certainly wouldn't buy it with those pictures.

 

What are you seeing that raises red flags?

[bsshog40]

Agreed, I don't see anything jumping out at me. If it's fake, I'd have gotten took.

[TonerGuy]

I cant tell but the fact that the seller has no history of selling coins and sells a lot of gift cards makes me too nervous to bid on it anyway...

[robec1347]

I don't see anything that screams fake. I'll wait to read what you have to say. The Cert Verification confirms that the number and coin information is the same.

[MarkFeld]

I don't see anything that immediately alerts me to it, but I certainly wouldn't buy it with those pictures.

 

What are you seeing that raises red flags?

 

The coin's surfaces are flat/lackluster and I have seen a good number of counterfeits with an artificially aged look, such as the darker borders on this one. But I understand that genuine coins can exhibit the same type of appearance.

 

I am not up on the different characteristics of counterfeit holders, as I focus on the coins, instead.

 

And, like TonerGuy, I noticed the seller's history appears to be highly inconsistent with this type of offering.

[johnny9434]

Happy Birthday as well Robec.

[jerseycat10]

I think the holder is fake.

 

The one diagnostic I am basing my opinion on is that the barcode uses 3 differents widths for spaces, whereas PCGS uses the Interleaved 2 of 5 format for its barcodes.

 

http://www.pcgs.com/barcode.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleaved_2_of_5

[Flatwoods]

If it's fake it's a pretty good one. I can't tell for sure from those pics.

Sadly, if it is, the buyer may never know.

[jerseycat10]

I've used red markers to identify the 3 different width's of spacing between the bars in the barcode.

 

This doesn't happen on genuine Interleaved 2 of 5 barcodes.

 

[messydesk]

I'd say bad. The coin doesn't look like a VF35, and the reverse lettering is suspect, especially the UN of UNITED. Maybe the seller should stick to gift cards.

[jom]

Great...just great. Now we have to be experts in bar codes. And here I thought if you knew how to grade reasonably well you can get by in this market. Argh.

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

Either it's a fake coin in a fake slab, or the imaging process used was horrible.

[WoodenJefferson]

Although I do not like the hologram on the reverse label, the images provided are not well enough to determine legitimacy.

 

Note: There are so many label changes through out the years, it's very hard to keep up with generations. This one is a toss-up!

[Keigwin]

I think it's fake, Mark. But I'm not sure.

 

1798 has pointed 9's, knobby 9's, wide dates, 10 arrows, 13 arrows, 4 line stripes, 5 line stripes. Lots of variety.

 

The date doesn't match any I found. Too far from the rim and too close to Liberty. The "knob 9" is close in position but the 8 isn't canted the same.

 

Maybe there are other varieties.

 

If anyone else asked this I'd turn to you for help!

 

Here are some pix, if that helps. The bottom, fuzzy one is from the auction.

Lance.

 

[bsshog40]

The bottom two on the left in Lance's pics looks the same as the ebay one??

[FishyOne]

The holder looks "off". No expert on slabs or Bust $1 but something doesn't look quite right.

[messydesk]

Well, I was going to crack out my bust dollar attribution book, but it looks like I don't have to now. The 8 is strongly tilted to the left on the eBay coin, and not on the lower right knobbed 9 in Lance's post that most closely matches the spacing and date position. The eBay coin is getting worse by the minute, and this is from a moon-shot of the coin. I have a feeling that in person it would look like a bad fake.

[Keigwin]

Adding images from the auction because we're shutting it down.

Lance.

 

[Conder101]

Unless this is the extremely rare B-18 it's a fake. B-18 is the only variety I don't have images of and this coin does not match any other variety. The obverse matches B-6 & 7. The reverse does not match any of the reverses for 1798 that I have images of. Considering that the knobbed 9 was only on the first few dies of the year (B-7 is the last obv I know of) it is very unlikely this is a B-18. I don't have access at the moment to my copy of Bolander or Reivers book on the early dollars so I can't guarantee that 18 doesn't pair the obverse of 6/7 with a different reverse.

 

I've done some more checking and I think it might be the reverse of 1800 B-19. or 1801 B-2. Hard to tell with the bad pictures.

[brg5658]

It's definitely fake based on the barcode, as jersey pointed out. Also, the font is too squat for this generation holder. There is an older version of the holder that had this fatter slight squat font, but the barcode was below the hologram on the back of the label for that holder.

 

The auction has been shut down, so good work guys!

 

See similar post here regarding the bar code differences.

[physics-fan3.14]

Wow, good job guys! I definitely didn't pick up on any of that. I would have been taken.

[coinman_23885]

The shape of the date, the spacing between letters, and the distance from the rim makes me question the coin's authenticity.

[JIM F.]

This makes me wonder if an owner tracking system might be useful. It would have to be voluntary of course, but may make a coin more sale-able. For instance when the TPGs grade a coin the submitter is entered into a database. When coin is sold, the new owner can then update the database and the previous owner would be alerted that this was done to ensure it was legitimate. Down the road a potential buyer could then verify the coin is "tracked" to the actual seller. Again, this would all be voluntarily submitted info and all info confidential so just anyone couldn't enter a cert number and find out the owner history.

 

It could potentially be retro-active if the TPGs would do this for coins already graded --- hmm another source for more revenue too. For privacy protection the owners could create aliases.

 

Anyway just a thought. The counterfeiters appear to be getting better, so new tools need to be devised to stop them.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Jim, for coins entered in the Registry, that functionality would probably take 10 lines of code. For high end coins that get auctioned off, the auction house will often provide the provenance of the coin. I find this very interesting, personally.

[JIM F.]

Jim, for coins entered in the Registry, that functionality would probably take 10 lines of code. For high end coins that get auctioned off, the auction house will often provide the provenance of the coin. I find this very interesting, personally.

 

It could be an "extension" or added feature of the registry. That didn't occur to me. The whole point is to create a legitimate way of assuring a buyer of the providence. Is it foolproof? Probably not, but might be a step in the right direction.

 

 

[braddick]

The font is too thick/dark on the insert.

More and more of these fake coins and slabs are showing up now with "circulated" details.

 

Here is one of mine:

[brg5658]

The font is too thick/dark on the insert.

More and more of these fake coins and slabs are showing up now with "circulated" details.

 

Here is one of mine:

 

Of course, the shield rivet details on that 1916 SLQ give it away as a fake immediately....

[Kamillion]

wow this is nuts...

 

fake slabs

[RockMyAmadeus]

The font is too thick/dark on the insert.

More and more of these fake coins and slabs are showing up now with "circulated" details.

 

Here is one of mine:

 

Of course, the shield rivet details on that 1916 SLQ give it away as a fake immediately....

 

So does the date.

 

Hopefully, the Chinese will continue to be careless with one or the other for a long time.