Toned slabbed coins

[mtnstyne]

What do you think his trick is?

 

Does he tone them after they are slabbed?

 

Does he have a trick to tone them in the slabs?

 

Or does he know someone at PCGS that does him a favor?

 

or IMO the least likely...are they all NT and market acceptable?

 

Crazy slabbed toners

[Hard Times]

is it possible that the slabs themselves are counterfeit?

[MarkFeld]

is it possible that the slabs themselves are counterfeit?

I don't think the holders are counterfeit. Nor would I assume that the coins are AT.

[mtnstyne]

is it possible that the slabs themselves are counterfeit?

I don't think the holders are counterfeit. Nor would I assume that the coins are AT.

 

Mark do you have any idea what would cause the crazy yellow circular toning in such short time if they are NT? I just can't imagine that being simple album toning in less than 10 years...of course I could be wrong, but it makes me want to go out to the garage to see if i can duplicate it.

 

Don't take this as anything other than me trying to learn please...I am not implying anything else other than it looks wrong to ME. Judging toning is by far my most neglected tool...next comes picture taking.

[physics-fan3.14]

Many of those Eagles are in line with what I have seen before. Remember, 99% silver behaves differently. Many of those are toned in the classic pattern of old PCI holders. While they may appear garish (and many of the photos appear enhanced), I'm not seeing a whole lot to raise red flags.

[Hard Times]

So are they toning in the holders themselves or was the toning process occurring prior to being graded and inserted into the holders?

[jom]

Many of those Eagles are in line with what I have seen before. Remember, 99% silver behaves differently. Many of those are toned in the classic pattern of old PCI holders. While they may appear garish (and many of the photos appear enhanced), I'm not seeing a whole lot to raise red flags.

 

Several questions:

 

1) So 99% behaves differently. What is it then that distinguishes 99% from 90% in terms of toning? Is it the fact it happens rapidly OR the fact it garners such wild colors?

 

2) I'm sure Dimefreak will "blow a lid" again when I bring this up but what about the devices vs. field effect I seem to harp on a lot? Most of these coins have the fields and devices at the same color which could indicate a rushed toning or fluid.

 

Whatever the case, the TPGs seem to believe that the coins are MA so does anything else really matter?

 

jom

[Houston Investor]

He specializes in toned coins - I am sure he works the bourse at shows to find this material. This is the most likely scenario. A guy who knows toned coins and what people will pay for the toning craze should do well.

 

Maybe he lives in Houston, keeps the coins in his garage for awhile exposed to the heat and humidity, no telling what that will do to these coins, then sends them off for grading.

 

I dont believe the slabs are counterfeit nor the coins AT.

[physics-fan3.14]

Many of those Eagles are in line with what I have seen before. Remember, 99% silver behaves differently. Many of those are toned in the classic pattern of old PCI holders. While they may appear garish (and many of the photos appear enhanced), I'm not seeing a whole lot to raise red flags.

 

Several questions:

 

1) So 99% behaves differently. What is it then that distinguishes 99% from 90% in terms of toning? Is it the fact it happens rapidly OR the fact it garners such wild colors?

 

2) I'm sure Dimefreak will "blow a lid" again when I bring this up but what about the devices vs. field effect I seem to harp on a lot? Most of these coins have the fields and devices at the same color which could indicate a rushed toning or fluid.

 

Whatever the case, the TPGs seem to believe that the coins are MA so does anything else really matter?

 

jom

 

Good questions:

 

1.) 99% (or purer) is all silver. The copper in a 90% alloy will behave differently. You are most likely getting the same silver sulfide surface layers, but it forms much more quickly on pure silver. Pure silver, like pure copper, is rather reactive. The color patterns are, again, going to be quite different, as you can see.

 

2.) The toning on these most likely occurred before being slabbed. As I said, this type of pattern is usually seen on old PCI holders. If you'll notice, many of his slabs are ICG. To me, this hints that PCGS might also have rejected those, and then he went to someone else.

 

The devices vs. field that you like to talk about alot is a useful tool - one of many in detecting AT coins. The lack or presence is by no means indicative. I have seen AT coins with the contrast, and I have seen NT coins with none. As you say, different causes of toning, different speeds, different environments, and different metals are all going to produce a different look. The devices vs. field is indicative of a very slow toning process, with very light air flow. Fluid transfer that is more aggressive, or more heavily laden with sulfur or toning agent will lack the fields vs. devices contrast.

 

Do not focus on a single indicator when trying to diagnose AT. Just like a carpenter has many tools to build a house, you have many other tools. Is the pattern something you have seen before on that type of coin or series? Is the color progression correct? Does the toning seem a part of the surface, or does it seem to float on top? Does it look right? These should all be a part of your evaluation, not just a single test.

 

Now, the question of whether MA or AT matters is really up to you. Do you like it, do you accept it, and do you want to add it to your collection? Really, even if it is blatantly AT, if you like it that is all that matters. Whether or not someone else likes it has no bearing (or shouldn't have) on your decision to purchase a coin. Am I going to point it out? Yeah, that's my purpose here. But if you like it, what else matters?

[bartlesvilleok]

While I think it would be very hard to tone a coin in the slab the OP question got me to thinking. Is it odd to anyone that none of the slabs are NGC were we could look up a photo of the graded coin?

 

[jom]

Excellent! Some comments below.

 

2.) The toning on these most likely occurred before being slabbed. As I said, this type of pattern is usually seen on old PCI holders. If you'll notice, many of his slabs are ICG. To me, this hints that PCGS might also have rejected those, and then he went to someone else.

 

I keep hearing this about the old PCI. What was it about these slabs that made the coins tone? Was this proven? Maybe a doctor put the slab in some sort of gas and it has nothing to do with holder itself.

 

The devices vs. field that you like to talk about alot is a useful tool - one of many in detecting AT coins. The lack or presence is by no means indicative. I have seen AT coins with the contrast, and I have seen NT coins with none. As you say, different causes of toning, different speeds, different environments, and different metals are all going to produce a different look. The devices vs. field is indicative of a very slow toning process, with very light air flow. Fluid transfer that is more aggressive, or more heavily laden with sulfur or toning agent will lack the fields vs. devices contrast.

 

I'd like to see a coin you felt was AT and it had the "contrast". That could be interesting.

 

Do not focus on a single indicator when trying to diagnose AT. Just like a carpenter has many tools to build a house, you have many other tools. Is the pattern something you have seen before on that type of coin or series? Is the color progression correct? Does the toning seem a part of the surface, or does it seem to float on top? Does it look right? These should all be a part of your evaluation, not just a single test.

 

I certainly haven't done that. This "method" is rather new to me relatively speaking. Before this I had NOTHING to go on. It is a start however.

 

Now, the question of whether MA or AT matters is really up to you. Do you like it, do you accept it, and do you want to add it to your collection? Really, even if it is blatantly AT, if you like it that is all that matters. Whether or not someone else likes it has no bearing (or shouldn't have) on your decision to purchase a coin. Am I going to point it out? Yeah, that's my purpose here. But if you like it, what else matters?

 

Here's your best quote. I agree 100%. I often say this and people like to get upset. Saying that it somehow lets the coin doctors "off the hook". Non-sense. If you like it, buy it....and that includes the price. For whatever reason toning is a hot topic and it's like lighting a fuse when people discuss it I guess.

 

One of the key factors of the MA vs AT thing is that many coins that could very possibly be AT have been given the blessing as MA. This distorts how people view these coins and the longer these coins are holdered the more people believe they are NT. As the generations of collectors pass on many will not remember what, say, Buffalo nickles looked like when stored in an old Raymond holder. All they've seen are slabbed examples. Same with Classic Commems and their original toning may disappear in the mists of antiquity. Who knows?

 

jom

[coinman_23885]

Many of those Eagles are in line with what I have seen before. Remember, 99% silver behaves differently. Many of those are toned in the classic pattern of old PCI holders. While they may appear garish (and many of the photos appear enhanced), I'm not seeing a whole lot to raise red flags.

 

Yes, I originally questioned whether the toning on a Silver Eagle I had in a PCGS holder was MA or NT. I then learned of the effect of the old PCI holders, and you can find them labeled 100% white (when the coins were slabbed by PCI) developing this type of target tone.

 

Many of those Eagles are in line with what I have seen before. Remember, 99% silver behaves differently. Many of those are toned in the classic pattern of old PCI holders. While they may appear garish (and many of the photos appear enhanced), I'm not seeing a whole lot to raise red flags.

 

Several questions:

 

1) So 99% behaves differently. What is it then that distinguishes 99% from 90% in terms of toning? Is it the fact it happens rapidly OR the fact it garners such wild colors?

 

2) I'm sure Dimefreak will "blow a lid" again when I bring this up but what about the devices vs. field effect I seem to harp on a lot? Most of these coins have the fields and devices at the same color which could indicate a rushed toning or fluid.

 

Whatever the case, the TPGs seem to believe that the coins are MA so does anything else really matter?

 

jom

 

Jom, this is why I questioned your application of this as a hard and fast rule in determining whether toning is artificial or not. I have seen coins in PCI holders myself after I conducted more research on a couple of pieces. This is why I questioned your statement in another thread concerning toning and the devices/field controversy. It can be an indicator of artificial toning, but it isn't a categorical rule.

 

 

With regards to the eBay seller, I have purchased a couple of coins from him, and after seeing the coins in hand, I am convinced that there are naturally toned. Also, the seller appears very honest in the dealings that I have had with him.

[physics-fan3.14]

I keep hearing this about the old PCI. What was it about these slabs that made the coins tone? Was this proven? Maybe a doctor put the slab in some sort of gas and it has nothing to do with holder itself.

 

jom

 

As coinman said, the PCI holders say the coin was 100% white when slabbed, and then developed these wild colors. Some plastics outgas, that is, release some of their chemicals into the environment. PCI holders are well known to do this, but old small white ANACS slabs sometimes do this as well. There is a certain look each of these holders get, and it can often be quite attractive. I believe these are 100% NT, as the coins were stored in keeping with accepted collector methods for a long period of time, and the toning developed inadvertently.

 

NGC and PCGS holders are not known to tone coins - I have never seen one. There are rumors that the paper label in no-line fatties could tone coins, but I personally have never seen one that was definitely from the insert.

[jackson64]

I'd like to add some evidence from an experience of my own .

 

Simple facts are as follows. A friend of mine who is older and I go fishing with ( he's actually well older--he's 78) had a brother who had last summer who owned a bar in Baltimore.

 

There was one particular patron-who they presumed was a bit of an alcoholic--had set up an account at the pub and always paid his bartab with old silver coins.

 

To cut to the chase ( it's starting to sound like one of those -" my wife's cousin's youngest nephews first son" type of story) my fishing buddy's brother died and my friend was left to handle the estate as sole surviving family. The house needed some serious repairs and to pay for the costs he used the coins his brotherr had stashed away. It turns out that there were 4 large, grey plastic tool boxes filled with them !!

 

99.9% was rat-eared albums of pennies, 1963-1990 proof sets, some colorized coins, foreign coins and tons and tons of 2x2's with circulated halves and silver dollars. Not a single rare, key or semi-key among them and nothing of condition rarity either. I tried sending in a few of the really DMPL ish Morgans and a few with some interesting color but got nothing that would help him out that way--instead I used my network of friends and did what he asked--I turned them into quick cash to get the house inspected and ready for market..

 

Long story short, there were a few American Silver Eagles in these small white envelopes--you know the ones, they're usually yellow like mailing envelopes except they are about 2x2 in size...well these were white envelopes of the same texture. Inside these 5 or 6 envelopes were the ASE's that were amazingly toned--they look like the oone picture on that guys website with the purple, blue and then gold covering the entire surface...

 

In 20 years, locked in a garage, in a toolbox, in the small envelope, these coins had toned like this WITHOUT intervention.

 

I can only be 99% sure there was no intervention, but since the hoarder had no knowledge of numismatics or how toning has the potential to increase what someone might pay for a coin--I know my friend's brother didn't do it...and I doubt the drunk bar patron knew either...

 

PS: for what it's worth my friend did get his brother's rundown house repaired and actually sold it in the current market. I also did some research to find the original source of all of the coins and by using some envelopes from the mint which still had mailing addresses, some receipts from Littleton and supply companies I was able to determine who had been the original assembler of the hoard-- but that's a tale for another day...

 

All I know is that-without a doubt for me--that ASE's in an acid type paper envelope or environment will tone wildly in 10-20 years..FACT

[coinman_23885]

I keep hearing this about the old PCI. What was it about these slabs that made the coins tone? Was this proven? Maybe a doctor put the slab in some sort of gas and it has nothing to do with holder itself.

 

jom

 

As coinman said, the PCI holders say the coin was 100% white when slabbed, and then developed these wild colors. Some plastics outgas, that is, release some of their chemicals into the environment. PCI holders are well known to do this, but old small white ANACS slabs sometimes do this as well. There is a certain look each of these holders get, and it can often be quite attractive. I believe these are 100% NT, as the coins were stored in keeping with accepted collector methods for a long period of time, and the toning developed inadvertently.

 

NGC and PCGS holders are not known to tone coins - I have never seen one. There are rumors that the paper label in no-line fatties could tone coins, but I personally have never seen one that was definitely from the insert.

 

The enormous number of old PCI slabbed Silver American Eagles that I have seen this effect on and the fact that you can purchase one and watch the progression over time yourself are good indicators that they are not gassed. I'm actually making a habit of intentionally buying white or mildly toned old PCI holdered Silver Eagles with the hopes that they will be ripe for cross-over in 10 years or so.

[brg5658]

Also, the seller appears very honest in the dealings that I have had with him.

 

Bernie Madoff also appeared very honest in his dealings. Appearance of honesty does not imply honesty. You always nit-pick my comments, I thought I'd clarify one of yours

[brg5658]

PS -- I know the beauty of toning is not a universal opinion, but rather a subjective one. My personal opinion is that I find some of his coins particularly hideous and artificial looking. These three below for example:

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

PS -- I know the beauty of toning is not a universal opinion, but rather a subjective one. My personal opinion is that I find some of his coins particularly hideous and artificial looking. These three below for example:

 

 

The first coin is mediocre in color, and I do not care for the latter two, but I wouldn't call them artificially toned.

[coinman_23885]

Also, the seller appears very honest in the dealings that I have had with him.

 

Bernie Madoff also appeared very honest in his dealings. Appearance of honesty does not imply honesty. You always nit-pick my comments, I thought I'd clarify one of yours

 

 

I wouldn't call it nit-picking, but you're always welcome to clarify or correct areas where I'm wrong, not fully correct, or where the issue needs to be explored more fully. You are 100% correct in the appearance of honesty, and the context that I was intending it was a response to the OP in case he was contemplating making a bid. My response was meant within the context of the seller's return privilege. He was very concerned about my satisfaction, and was even willing to extend the return period on a coin that I didn't receive promptly because I am away at school (the coin was delivered to my parents).

 

Also, since I am disclosing that I made a return of one of the pieces that I purchased, I will make clear that there is nothing wrong with seller or his coin; I just didn't like it as much in hand and it didn't seem to fit in with my set.

 

[jom]

Jom, this is why I questioned your application of this as a hard and fast rule in determining whether toning is artificial or not. I have seen coins in PCI holders myself after I conducted more research on a couple of pieces. This is why I questioned your statement in another thread concerning toning and the devices/field controversy. It can be an indicator of artificial toning, but it isn't a categorical rule.

 

I actually never said it was a categorical rule. I've just been told that if you DO have the contrast (I'll call it the "contrast rule" for ease), even if it is in just part of the coin, it is a good bet it's NT. If not, then you just aren't sure and need other evidence. I don't think I ever said if the contrast rule is violated the coin HAS to be AT.

 

QUESTION: You guys are now telling me these PCI slabs tone these coin in a natural way. OK that is good to know. And these coins also seem to tone in such a manner they "violate" the contrast rule. I'm wondering then how this happens. If the rule works for Morgan dollars in an old Mint bag then how did the plastic holders not do the same? I'm curious. Because of the 99% silver?

 

I'd also want to point out that I also never said this would apply to any other metals. In fact, I have a number of copper-nickel Kennedy halves that violate contrast rule blatantly. But I know for a FACT the toning was applied by my Dansco holders. I also have a few Buffalo nickels that are NT. On the other hand I've seen some Buffs that while certified I'm about 90% they were "done". However, there is no help whatsoever from this contrast rule in ANY of these cases. One of my Kennedys, the wildest one in fact:

 

 

 

The top photo was taken in 2000 or so after the coin had been in a Dansco about 7 years. I had the coin in a plastic "snap" until 2007 then (mistakenly in my opinion) put it back into the SAME HOLE in the Dansco. The second photo was taken a few months ago. Yes, that is the same coin. Note though it violates this "hard and fast" contrast rule.

 

The top photo looks like MANY Buffalo nickels look in a Raymond album...same rainbow pattern. Now the coin looks "funny" as the tight rainbow is now gone. A bit too much "NT" could make your coin look "AT". Thoughts?

 

PS -- I know the beauty of toning is not a universal opinion, but rather a subjective one. My personal opinion is that I find some of his coins particularly hideous and artificial looking. These three below for example

 

The first coin is mediocre in color, and I do not care for the latter two, but I wouldn't call them artificially toned.

 

I agree with BRG here. I think these are hideous as well and I just can't get my head around the fact that these could any way possibly be NT. MA maybe but NT?

 

jom

[kryptonitecomics]

As has been said multiple times in this thread....the coins with the concentric rainbow circles are almost 100% guaranteed to be out of old PCI holders...I have seen hundreds of these coins over the years and actually find them quite attractive though I can see why some would state AT and or not like the wild colors. I think most of the sellers images are a bit juiced making the colors look even more wild then they might in hand but that is pretty much the norm now on Ebay and I am sure the seller gets away with it becuase the coins are still nice in hand.

 

The only other thing else to note in this discussion is that old ngc no line fatty's absolutely do tone coins since there is no seperation between the paper labels and the coins. Since we all know that paper is infused with sulfer buy the very nature of it's manufacture it is common knowledge that most of the silver coins found within these old holders do have slight to moderate rim toning.

 

I am sure I could provide dozens of examples that illustate the common rim toning but of course I can't post images of a white coin in an old NGC slab taken say 20+ years ago compared to a recent photo showing the toning on that same coin

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Shane, could you post pictures of a coin that you believe was toned by the paper insert? I'd be very interested to see.

 

I'd also want to point out that I also never said this would apply to any other metals. In fact, I have a number of copper-nickel Kennedy halves that violate contrast rule blatantly. But I know for a FACT the toning was applied by my Dansco holders. I also have a few Buffalo nickels that are NT. On the other hand I've seen some Buffs that while certified I'm about 90% they were "done". However, there is no help whatsoever from this contrast rule in ANY of these cases. One of my Kennedys, the wildest one in fact:

 

jom

 

The contrast rule is not a function of metal. Absolutely not. In fact, it applies equally to all metals. This is because it is not a property of the metal, it has to do with the air flow across the surface of the coin. Think of it like a mountain and a valley - the devices are the mountains, the spaces in between them are valleys. With a gentle breeze in the valley, you'll never feel it on the mountaintop. This is why for many situations, there is less toning on the devices - the thick, heavy sulfur in the air flow does not go up the mountain. In an album or a plastic holder, the concentration of pollutants is much higher, hence toning even on the high points.

[noow]

[physics-fan3.14]

 

Not off topic at all. Actually, very much on topic.

[noow]

 

Not off topic at all. Actually, very much on topic.

 

From slabs to coins.

[kryptonitecomics]

Shane, could you post pictures of a coin that you believe was toned by the paper insert? I'd be very interested to see.

 

 

 

I just received a group of 5 old NGC fatty's today that I will post once I image them...I think they will be fairly representative of what I see quite commonly and you will notice that the part of the coin closest to the paper insert is always toned darker and or further along in the toning spectrum them the bottom of the coin futhest away from the label, which is sometimes untoned... (thumbs u

[jom]

 

Not off topic at all. Actually, very much on topic.

 

 

 

jom

 

PS: Sorry...I couldn't help it.

[jom]

The contrast rule is not a function of metal. Absolutely not. In fact, it applies equally to all metals. This is because it is not a property of the metal, it has to do with the air flow across the surface of the coin. Think of it like a mountain and a valley - the devices are the mountains, the spaces in between them are valleys. With a gentle breeze in the valley, you'll never feel it on the mountaintop. This is why for many situations, there is less toning on the devices - the thick, heavy sulfur in the air flow does not go up the mountain. In an album or a plastic holder, the concentration of pollutants is much higher, hence toning even on the high points.

 

OK, now I'm a bit confused. Then how can a coin, which does NOT contrast, be considered NT? Heavy sulfur from air flow would do that so wouldn't that point to it being artificial?

 

Also, I would point out to discuss this we need a good definition of "NT" or "AT" to start.

 

jom

[physics-fan3.14]

The contrast rule is not a function of metal. Absolutely not. In fact, it applies equally to all metals. This is because it is not a property of the metal, it has to do with the air flow across the surface of the coin. Think of it like a mountain and a valley - the devices are the mountains, the spaces in between them are valleys. With a gentle breeze in the valley, you'll never feel it on the mountaintop. This is why for many situations, there is less toning on the devices - the thick, heavy sulfur in the air flow does not go up the mountain. In an album or a plastic holder, the concentration of pollutants is much higher, hence toning even on the high points.

 

OK, now I'm a bit confused. Then how can a coin, which does NOT contrast, be considered NT? Heavy sulfur from air flow would do that so wouldn't that point to it being artificial?

 

Also, I would point out to discuss this we need a good definition of "NT" or "AT" to start.

 

jom

 

It's all a matter of environement. Different air flows, different contaminants, different storage, different humidity all behave differently. Having contrast is a good sign of NT, not having it is not a definite sign of AT.

[lehigh96]

Some examples of PCI encapsulated ASE toners. Please note that the colors are not crazy in hue. That comes from over saturating the photos.