"Would you say this is an insulting offer?"

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Good Evening Ms. Sperber.

 

The interesting point to be made is that the "Rant" is very logical.

 

It is not logical to be "sorry" for extravagant, enthusiastic communication about a Subject you are well versed in and whose opinion should be considered with enthusiasm.

 

When another person does consider such an enthusiastic Rant from an accomplished source, it is known as learning from a competent teacher.

 

Teach/Rant as much as you are able. I, for one, enjoy the experience and chance to learn.

 

Respectfully, (even if it is Jersey)

John Curlis

[jom]

Because, rather than thinking it quietly, behind his back, I wanted to let him know what I thought of his offer. It is as simple as that, even though others are free to and apparently do disagree.

 

You certainly have the right to do whatever you feel comfortable with. I'd assume you know the buyer so maybe there is some history there.

 

I just think the retort may have been better placed as an educational reply such as making the argument such as Legend did above.

 

I know what the buyer is saying though...not getting buried etc etc. I find valuation of coins being a very difficult task. We all try our best...but it is a tad offensive when someone laughs at your offer (like I got) or says it's an insulting offer back to you. However, the one thing I would not have done as a buyer is bring it up on the message board. In my case it was all done PM and I just said "thanks I'll pass" as I didn't know the guy. If it had been you I'd probably call you back to discuss.

 

I just found it a bit surprising that YOU (of all people) would respond back that way.

 

jom

[Hard Times]

In this case, 3.4% is not necessarily insulting, but unless the coin is a dog I want to get rid of (I'd like to think I don't sell those types of coins...... Neither does Mark), there is no possible way to sell the coin with those margins and come out ahead. There is alot of time and costs involved in picking the right coins to sell. Mark is the best at that, he should never sell on those margins. On the other hand, well, there might be better ways to tell the customer no?

 

Having said that, some buyers always just want a deal no matter what, maybe it is useful sometimes to 'insult' their insulting offers.

[Houston Investor]

I can understand the sellers frustration after all he is being very transparent with the customer as to the cost he has in it not considering he would send out such a big ticket item on approval (very accomodating).

 

1. I have had lots of low ball offers on material (both at shows and online) and have developed an immunity to being insulted by this. Sometimes I will solicit these people if they have anything they want to sell me at that price (of course they never do ). If I am in something with a narrow spread and get a counter offer I simply reply "Thats my best price, I operate on a narrow spread." I think a lot of people make low offers either out of ignorance or seeing how far they can push you. Others have such an inflated ego or hostility towards dealers

that probably a 5% dealer spread is too much for them. Frankly I could care less, my policies are about what I expect in running my business.

 

2. I dont discuss with buyers what I have in a coin. My cost of inventory or ROI goals are none of their business nor a "need to know" for them. While I may consider a counter-offer I am not a seller of the coin unless it meets my ROI goals.

 

3. I would never consider sending such a big ticket item on approval and do not ship anything or allow it to leave my table at a show unless it has been paid for in full (and if mail order payment has cleared). A guy ATS had a $2000 approval item he had sent to a prospective buyer returned and lost by USPS and looks like its going to be tough for him to collect as the seller only insured it for $300. I dont post over there but read their forum for info / entertainment.

 

To me "low ball offer" is a subjective term. If I have $250 in a coin that say Market Retail is $450 (and I quote him that or clse to it) and CDN Bid is $300 and the guy offers say $360 then I would probably gladly accept the offer to quickly move the coin. As a matter of fact a dealer at a table next to me at a recent show said "I try to get between cost and retail" while we were discussing a similar subject.

 

In the case of your example (a big ticket coin with a narrow spread, at least IMO) obviously there is not much room for negotiation if any. He may have been looking for the seller to meet him halfway (and make a counter-offer), but not sure if thats what the seller would want to leave on the table. One thing I like about Ebay is the seller can make an item BIN or Make Offer and set the computer to automatically reject any offers below a certain amount.

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A retort is to turn (an insult, etc.) back on its originator, or to say in reply, or to make a sharp, witty reply.

 

If the retort is made by a knowledgeable person to a person that has been self-described as knowledgeable, then the reply is educational.

 

But (there is always a "but"), if the self-described knowledgeable person "ain't", and this becomes obvious to the knowledgeable person, it is possible that the knowledgeable person could have considered charity of language.

 

When the buyer is a self-described accomplished buyer, the buyer should be responsible in his/her actions, especially so when dealing with an accomplished and knowledgeable seller.

 

Was the Offer considered insulting because the self-described knowledgeable person- buyer didn't see the coin in person and the knowledgeable person-seller did, and the self-described knowledgeable person- buyer ignored this important fact?

 

This alone would tend to limit any surprise concerning the knowledgeable person-seller's Retort.

 

Respectfully, (of course)

 

John Curlis

[noow]

I am the dealer in question.

 

I was suspecting that.

[coinman_23885]

 

I am the dealer in question.

 

I was beginning to wonder about this myself. Again, I don't think his offer was insulting, but it was certainly naive. I would probably not offer him any more coins on an approval basis.

 

EDITED TO ADD: My original commentary was based on the hypothetical coin, assuming that you had paid wholesale prices for it. With the coin in question now known, I cannot say that I would refuse to conduct business with the prospective buyer, nor can I consider his offer insulting.

 

[coinman_23885]

Given the new facts that have been revealed, it appears that you are referencing the 1885 PCGS PR63 Morgan Dollar on your price list. His pricing wasn't far enough below the selling price to make the offer insulting, especially given that the last five sales records at Heritage average $2,691. While I cannot say that I blame you for your frustration, you put a lot of money into the coin to expect a $375 mark-up. It sounds to me like you paid relatively close to the retail value of the coin. I will admit that the coin is premium quality and that it exhibits pleasant toning, but I cannot fairly say that I would feel insulted if someone refused to pay a few hundred over retail for it. I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, but you asked for an honest opinion.

 

 

Auction 1159, Lot 3802 Friday, September 9, 2011 63 PCGS $2,880.75 *

Auction 1110, Lot 1498 Sunday, June 29, 2008 63 PCGS $2,990.00

Auction 414, Lot 3201 Monday, August 14, 2006 63 PCGS $2,185.00

Auction 1139, Lot 2647 Sunday, May 2, 2010 63 NGC $2,530.00

Auction 1114, Lot 2458 Sunday, August 3, 2008 63 NGC $2,760.00

Auction 434, Lot 5064 Saturday, May 12, 2007 63 NGC $2,990.00

 

PCGS Price Guide Value $2,800

Numismedia $2,970

 

* Auction in question

[comicdonna]

Dealer has a new coin listed for sale at $3275.

 

Customer inquires about it, and, after being told dealer paid just shy of $2900 for it, wants to see it on approval at $3000.

 

Dealer tells customer that under the circumstances (his cost just shy of $2900 and the coin being newly listed), the offer was insulting.

 

What say you?

Does the $2900 include dealers expenses, such as traveling to shows ect...? Many collectors are not aware of business expenses. Seriously, this appears to an honest dealer. Having said that, I probably would not have used the word insulting to a customer.

[MarkFeld]

Given the new facts that have been revealed, it appears that you are referencing the 1885 PCGS PR63 Morgan Dollar on your price list. His pricing wasn't far enough below the selling price to make the offer insulting, especially given that the last five sales records at Heritage average $2,691. While I cannot say that I blame you for your frustration, you put a lot of money into the coin to expect a $375 mark-up. It sounds to me like you paid relatively close to the retail value of the coin. I will admit that the coin is premium quality and that it exhibits pleasant toning, but I cannot fairly say that I would feel insulted if someone refused to pay a few hundred over retail for it. I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, but you asked for an honest opinion.

 

 

Auction 1159, Lot 3802 Friday, September 9, 2011 63 PCGS $2,880.75 *

Auction 1110, Lot 1498 Sunday, June 29, 2008 63 PCGS $2,990.00

Auction 414, Lot 3201 Monday, August 14, 2006 63 PCGS $2,185.00

Auction 1139, Lot 2647 Sunday, May 2, 2010 63 NGC $2,530.00

Auction 1114, Lot 2458 Sunday, August 3, 2008 63 NGC $2,760.00

Auction 434, Lot 5064 Saturday, May 12, 2007 63 NGC $2,990.00

 

PCGS Price Guide Value $2,800

Numismedia $2,970

 

* Auction in question

 

You were neither rude nor offensive. However, it appears that you might have performed an incomplete search, and maybe the would-be buyer did, as well.

 

Did you look up only 1885's? If so, it would have been better to have looked up all dates of that grade and then excluded any results for better/rare dates. Below is just one example. I did pay a strong price for the coin (because I felt it deserved it) and, as a result, marked it up less than many other sellers would have.

 

Sold For: $3,308.55‡

 

1879 $1 PR63 PCGS. CAC.... [Open item in a new window]

Lot 4140 » Silver and Related Dollars » Morgan Dollars

Service: PCGS

Grade: PR63

Auction Date:

Jun 3, 2011

Bid Source: Internet

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The grumpy guy is back.....

I hate it when he pops up with a logical Retort.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[jom]

Did you look up only 1885's? If so, it would have been better to have looked up all dates of that grade and then excluded any results for better/rare dates. Below is just one example. I did pay a strong price for the coin (because I felt it deserved it) and, as a result, marked it up less than many other sellers would have.

 

This is a great point and something I haven't done. Many times I'm thinking of ONLY that date which is dumb. I should be looking at OTHER dates that are considered similar in rarity or have the same underlying Grey Sheet price in that grade.

 

This is useful information in helping me set valuation better.

 

Thanks Mark!

 

jom

[Hard Times]

The grumpy guy is back.....

I hate it when he pops up with a logical Retort.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

who dat?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

That grumpy logical guy, that gets "insulted". It "ain't' the other guy......

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[West August-migration]

Insulting? My guess is he meant no insult.

Naive? Yes

Tone deaf? Definitely

 

I'm sure I have unwittingly said equally insensitive things to coin dealers.

[DirtyGoldMan]

I am curious, Mark. If it were a cash done-deal at the show, you hypothetically having just picked up the coin from Heritage, would you have considered selling for $3000? How about a month from now, if the coin is still in inventory?

 

I am just trying to get an idea re: how dealers' minds work on these matters, realizing that all dealers think and work differently.

[blu62vette]

The coins is amazing. Even I was thinking about finding 3275 for that one.

[DirtyGoldMan]

The coins is amazing. Even I was thinking about finding 3275 for that one.

I am thinking about offering him $3500 for it.

[leeg]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone. If I had the cash for this piece I would have paid his asking price no question.

[Old Pueblo]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone. If I had the cash for this piece I would have paid his asking price no question.

Me too! That is one lovely Morgan!

[noow]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone. If I had the cash for this piece I would have paid his asking price no question.

Agreed

[coinman_23885]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone.

 

Very true. P.S. Did anyone here pick up the half cent that he had in his most recent list? I emailed him within 4 hours and I was the 4th or 5th email he had received offering to purchase the piece. I was too late again!

[MarkFeld]

I am curious, Mark. If it were a cash done-deal at the show, you hypothetically having just picked up the coin from Heritage, would you have considered selling for $3000? How about a month from now, if the coin is still in inventory?

 

I am just trying to get an idea re: how dealers' minds work on these matters, realizing that all dealers think and work differently.

 

Robert, no to the $3000 at the show. After a month, depending upon how difficult or easy buying and selling were, as well as the level of my inventory, I might consider something in the $3100-$3150 range.

[MarkFeld]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone.

 

Very true. P.S. Did anyone here pick up the half cent that he had in his most recent list? I emailed him within 4 hours and I was the 4th or 5th email he had received offering to purchase the piece. I was too late again!

Yes, someone from here did buy that coin - it was, by far, the most popular coin from my new list. But I will leave it to the buyer to fess up or not.

[AnkurJ]

I'm the one who made the offer.

 

Mark, just to clarify. Have we ever had a bad transaction?

 

Laura, thank you for the "favor". I'll think twice before asking again.

[Kamillion]

i think the dealer using the word insulting, is in fact, insulting.

 

other than that i see no problem except the dealer PMSing.

 

business is business, and offers are made high and low.

 

just my 2cents

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm guessing with all this free publicity, that Morgan is already gone. Or will be shortly.

[ldhair]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone.

 

Very true. P.S. Did anyone here pick up the half cent that he had in his most recent list? I emailed him within 4 hours and I was the 4th or 5th email he had received offering to purchase the piece. I was too late again!

I was the third to ask for the coin. Nice coin. Wish I had been faster.

[coinman_23885]

Given the new facts that have been revealed, it appears that you are referencing the 1885 PCGS PR63 Morgan Dollar on your price list. His pricing wasn't far enough below the selling price to make the offer insulting, especially given that the last five sales records at Heritage average $2,691. While I cannot say that I blame you for your frustration, you put a lot of money into the coin to expect a $375 mark-up. It sounds to me like you paid relatively close to the retail value of the coin. I will admit that the coin is premium quality and that it exhibits pleasant toning, but I cannot fairly say that I would feel insulted if someone refused to pay a few hundred over retail for it. I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, but you asked for an honest opinion.

 

 

Auction 1159, Lot 3802 Friday, September 9, 2011 63 PCGS $2,880.75 *

Auction 1110, Lot 1498 Sunday, June 29, 2008 63 PCGS $2,990.00

Auction 414, Lot 3201 Monday, August 14, 2006 63 PCGS $2,185.00

Auction 1139, Lot 2647 Sunday, May 2, 2010 63 NGC $2,530.00

Auction 1114, Lot 2458 Sunday, August 3, 2008 63 NGC $2,760.00

Auction 434, Lot 5064 Saturday, May 12, 2007 63 NGC $2,990.00

 

PCGS Price Guide Value $2,800

Numismedia $2,970

 

* Auction in question

 

You were neither rude nor offensive. However, it appears that you might have performed an incomplete search, and maybe the would-be buyer did, as well.

 

Did you look up only 1885's? If so, it would have been better to have looked up all dates of that grade and then excluded any results for better/rare dates. Below is just one example. I did pay a strong price for the coin (because I felt it deserved it) and, as a result, marked it up less than many other sellers would have.

 

Sold For: $3,308.55‡

 

1879 $1 PR63 PCGS. CAC.... [Open item in a new window]

Lot 4140 » Silver and Related Dollars » Morgan Dollars

Service: PCGS

Grade: PR63

Auction Date:

Jun 3, 2011

Bid Source: Internet

 

 

The prices that I quoted were for the 1885s only although I did conduct a cursory glance at the other PR63 Morgan Dollars in other dates at Heritage before posting. I didn’t go through a thorough analysis, but I noted 9 pieces with selling prices ranging from $2,300 - $2,875 excluding coins with cameo designations. I also excluded an 1880 $1 in an old NGC that demonstrated significant cameo contrasts, but lacked a designation. This coin sold for around $3200.

 

In fairness, my initial and admittedly brief analysis only consisted of a review of pieces from July onward (for non 1885s only). This necessarily limits the number of sales reviewed, and it is probably just as errant to focus on a particular sale or two as to focus on an individual price record. Additionally, while the 1885 doesn’t stand out as a better date to me, I didn’t check the mintages, estimated number of surviving pieces, or the population reports of any of the other dates. All of these could potentially bias an analysis.

 

[lcoopie]

don't tell mark,

but I feel his prices are so fair,

that I don't bother to even look at the price guides.

 

shhhhhh.