Who's Responsibility Is It?

[leeg]

to return a coin that has been found to have turned in the holder?

 

Me because I just bought sight unseen? The eBay seller who I purchased it from and has a return policy? The Auction House selling the coin or the cosigner who sent it to the Auction House?

 

Big grey area in my opinion.

 

I've sent my share of coins back to the Grading Services under the Grade Guarantee. Personally, I would never sell a coin that I owned that had turned. It would go back to the Grading Service or I would eat it and chalk it up to education.

 

My main concern are new folks who have no clue about coins that may purchase them, like me about 10 years ago.

 

I just think it's unethical to knowingly sell a bad coin. If you're selling coins, you know if it's turned in the holder.

 

I think it's more like:

 

 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[Conder101]

It depends, what are you trying to accomplish? Get your money back or get a now improperly graded coin off the market? Returning it to the ebay seller will get your money back but won't get the improperly graded coin off the market. Sending it to the TPG will get the grade corrected and will either get part or all of your money back. As for the Auction house possibilities the chances of getting satisfaction from them is small. Check the terms of sale on all the major houses and you will find a clause stating that TPG coins are not returnable for any reason. If you have a problem with them you are expected to take it up with the TPG.

[JStull]

By turned, I assume you mean has toned?

 

If this is the case, then my opinion is coins with silver will tone. It's a fact of life. It happens. No matter what one may do to prevent it from happening, toning will occur at some point in time.

 

Never sweat the petty things, and never pet the sweaty things.

[leeg]

By turned, I assume you mean has toned?

 

If this is the case, then my opinion is coins with silver will tone. It's a fact of life. It happens. No matter what one may do to prevent it from happening, toning will occur at some point in time.

 

Never sweat the petty things, and never pet the sweaty things.

 

Ugly spot around the ear.

[WoodenJefferson]

 

Interesting question, but the parameters must be in place before even attempting an answer.

 

A. Grade review

1. down graded due to problems

2. will service refund the difference between the grades and return the coin

3. will the service replace the coin with like or greater item

 

B. Will you loose money if sent to service under their grade review

1. you paid more for the coin than services listed price

2. return coin to sender and ask for a refund

3. keep the coin as a lesson

4. crack the coin from the holder so future transactions of sight unseen will never happen again.

[MarkFeld]

Interesting question, but the parameters must be in place before even attempting an answer.

 

A. Grade review

1. down graded due to problems

2. will service refund the difference between the grades and return the coin

3. will the service replace the coin with like or greater item

 

B. Will you loose money if sent to service under their grade review

1. you paid more for the coin than services listed price

2. return coin to sender and ask for a refund

3. keep the coin as a lesson

4. crack the coin from the holder so future transactions of sight unseen will never happen again.

I'm not convinced that the answers to those important questions/considerations should determine whose responsibility it is.

[PCcoins]

If you aren't happy with the coin I would return it.

[James_OldeTowne]

This may be an aside, but I am rather astonished at how infrequently folks use the "grade guarantee" when the situation calls for it. More often than not (much more often), they would rather dump the coin on eBay or place it in an auction and hope to just "get out of it". This based on numerous discussions in the past, although I don't have any hard statistics to back up the claim.

[MarkFeld]

This may be an aside, but I am rather astonished at how infrequently folks use the "grade guarantee" when the situation calls for it. More often than not (much more often), they would rather dump the coin on eBay or place it in an auction and hope to just "get out of it". This based on numerous discussions in the past, although I don't have any hard statistics to back up the claim.

My experiences and observations concerning this subject are admittedly limited. However, it is my impression that the major grading companies sometimes make the process long and difficult, thereby discouraging use of their grading guarantees.

[jom]

However, it is my impression that the major grading companies sometimes make the process long and difficult, thereby discouraging use of their grading guarantees.

 

Wow...that's a shocking revelation.

 

 

jom

 

[gmarguli]

This may be an aside, but I am rather astonished at how infrequently folks use the "grade guarantee" when the situation calls for it. More often than not (much more often), they would rather dump the coin on eBay or place it in an auction and hope to just "get out of it". This based on numerous discussions in the past, although I don't have any hard statistics to back up the claim.

My experiences and observations concerning this subject are admittedly limited. However, it is my impression that the major grading companies sometimes make the process long and difficult, thereby discouraging use of their grading guarantees.

 

Yep. It's way easier to just blow the coin out than deal with the TPG. You can have money tied up in the coin while the TPG reviews it and who knows if they will agree they made a mistake. Easier to dump it.

[Buffalo Head]

However, it is my impression that the major grading companies sometimes make the process long and difficult, thereby discouraging use of their grading guarantees.

 

Wow...that's a shocking revelation.

 

 

jom

 

Jom, you have a habit of making me laugh my arss off....

[jom]

However, it is my impression that the major grading companies sometimes make the process long and difficult, thereby discouraging use of their grading guarantees.

 

Wow...that's a shocking revelation.

 

 

jom

 

Jom, you have a habit of making me laugh my arss off....

 

OK...where did you get my photo?

 

jom

[coinman_23885]

This may be an aside, but I am rather astonished at how infrequently folks use the "grade guarantee" when the situation calls for it. More often than not (much more often), they would rather dump the coin on eBay or place it in an auction and hope to just "get out of it". This based on numerous discussions in the past, although I don't have any hard statistics to back up the claim.

My experiences and observations concerning this subject are admittedly limited. However, it is my impression that the major grading companies sometimes make the process long and difficult, thereby discouraging use of their grading guarantees.

 

Yep. It's way easier to just blow the coin out than deal with the TPG. You can have money tied up in the coin while the TPG reviews it and who knows if they will agree they made a mistake. Easier to dump it.

 

It happened to me once, and I made sure that the prospective buyer was well aware of the issue, and the images that I provided were accurate. I dumped it quickly rather than waiting several weeks for a disposition.

[michael]

This may be an aside, but I am rather astonished at how infrequently folks use the "grade guarantee" when the situation calls for it. More often than not (much more often), they would rather dump the coin on eBay or place it in an auction and hope to just "get out of it". This based on numerous discussions in the past, although I don't have any hard statistics to back up the claim.

My experiences and observations concerning this subject are admittedly limited. However, it is my impression that the major grading companies sometimes make the process long and difficult, thereby discouraging use of their grading guarantees.

 

 

agreed 100%

 

from my experiences seeing others when they have knowledge their coin is a major/minor problem other than grade related in a holder

 

 

 

what guarantee?

 

 

 

 

an extremely unfortunate situation

 

and so it is usually not always but usually offered/auctioned/marketed/sold/traded to another shlimazel

 

an even more extremely unfortunate situation

 

 

one of the dirty little "secrets" of the coin game

 

 

great thread by the way

 

 

[Chris1976]

Personally I feel that the coin that appears to be mis-graded should be sent back to the TPG for re-evaluation. But unfortunately (depending on the TPG's policy), it may simply too much money to be invested for the coin to be re-graded depending on the value of the coin in question.

 

And example of where it would be more costly than its worth is the 2005-P Ocean View Jefferson Nickel that I had recieved in a surprise bag I had won at a local club's raffle drawing. ICG graded it at MS-67, unfortunately, looking at the obverse you can clearly see a "smudge" in front of Jeffersons nose where the planchet had not been rised 100%. FMV for that grade is $30 but ICG charges $24 for the review plus shipping there and back with no promise of compensation for the grade difference. Granted due to the coin being free (well ok, it was $1.00 for the raffle ticket), I'm not out anything and can live with it at the wrong grade for now. Maybe years and years down the road it might be worth sending for review, but I highly doubt it will happen within my lifetime.

 

-Chris

[leeg]

C'mon people. "Dumping" the coin is definately NOT the answer I was hoping for. I guess duping the unknowing is ok by you folks. So sad.

 

What name do you call yourselves? Numismatists, Collectors, Dealers, or something else?

 

I want to know so I ensure I don't ever use that term when discussing myself.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

I would dump the coin, but I wouldn't be out to dupe anyone. I believe in full disclosure, at all times.

[MarkFeld]

C'mon people. "Dumping" the coin is definately NOT the answer I was hoping for. I guess duping the unknowing is ok by you folks. So sad.

 

What name do you call yourselves? Numismatists, Collectors, Dealers, or something else?

 

I want to know so I ensure I don't ever use that term when discussing myself.

 

 

Lee, what do you recommend owners of such coins do? Would your answer be the same if you knew that it might take a month or (much longer) for the grading company to resolve the situation?

[leeg]

Lee, what do you recommend owners of such coins do? Would your answer be the same if you knew that it might take a month or (much longer) for the grading company to resolve the situation?

Mark I've had coins sent back to the Grading Services that took over six month's to get resolved.

 

It's a necessary evil to get bad coins off the market.

 

I just have to accept the fact that as Human Beings we all handle situations differently. I just hope that more folks will send bad coins back to the Grading Services.

 

I did receive a PM from NGC about the coin I showed above concerning it's return to them. (thumbs u

[MarkFeld]

Lee, what do you recommend owners of such coins do? Would your answer be the same if you knew that it might take a month or (much longer) for the grading company to resolve the situation?

Mark I've had coins sent back to the Grading Services that took over six month's to get resolved.

 

It's a necessary evil to get bad coins off the market.

 

I just have to accept the fact that as Human Beings we all handle situations differently. I just hope that more folks will send bad coins back to the Grading Services.

 

I did receive a PM from NGC about the coin I showed above concerning it's return to them. (thumbs u

Lee, I very much respect your stance on this issue. Still, I can empathize with dealers (who buy and sell coins for a living and) who don't want to tie up their inventory for weeks or months.

[leeg]

Lee, I very much respect your stance on this issue. Still, I can empathize with dealers (who buy and sell coins for a living and) who don't want to tie up their inventory for weeks or months.

Thanks Mark. I can understand your position in bold above. In your opinion what should coin dealers do about a bad coin then?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The comment causes a quandary, for me.

 

Empathy is certainly understandable.

 

But (there is always a "but"), it is not an answer, or even a partial solution or a recommendation.

 

As a Dealer with an impeccable reputation, the more important issue is what would you recommend owners of such coins do?

 

Return it to the Dealer/person that sold it?

 

The Dealer return it to the Dealer/person he bought it from, or to the TPG he/she had it graded at, before selling it to another person/Dealer?

 

Sell the coin with clear commentary stating that the coin has turned in the Holder, and offer it for fair market value, thereby offering an opportunity for the TPG services, gray/blue sheet services, Red Book, etc., to establish a new numismatic market for such pieces, and maybe even cause a rise in employment by doing so?

 

Offer to support efforts and cost for returning the coin to the Grading Company?

 

Demand thru petition sanctioned by ANA, PNG, ALL DEALERS,or some other means that would have an economic impact on the TPG, that the time limit be reduced to a certain amount of days?

 

Consider alternative methods of encapsulation that prevent further deterioration?

 

No Dealer OR Collector "wants" to tie up their inventory or money for weeks or months. Why should the burden fall strictly to the non-Dealer?

 

I have body blemishes-certainly not market(read attractive to society at large) acceptable. Should I demand a re-evaluation of my acceptability under EEO and Equal Rights laws? The first hand knowledge was shared with me that I certainly wasn't issued that way, so it is not her fault, so don't come home because I am not her inventory anymore. She did her job and then passed me on to the market. I was certainly able to be collected and was market accepted at that time, so if I changed in the Holder, to bad.

 

Respectfully (of course)

John Curlis

 

[MarkFeld]

The comment causes a quandary, for me.

 

Empathy is certainly understandable.

 

But (there is always a "but"), it is not an answer, or even a partial solution or a recommendation.

 

As a Dealer with an impeccable reputation, the more important issue is what would you recommend owners of such coins do?

 

Return it to the Dealer/person that sold it?

 

The Dealer return it to the Dealer/person he bought it from, or to the TPG he/she had it graded at, before selling it to another person/Dealer?

 

Sell the coin with clear commentary stating that the coin has turned in the Holder, and offer it for fair market value, thereby offering an opportunity for the TPG services, gray/blue sheet services, Red Book, etc., to establish a new numismatic market for such pieces, and maybe even cause a rise in employment by doing so?

 

Offer to support efforts and cost for returning the coin to the Grading Company?

 

Demand thru petition sanctioned by ANA, PNG, ALL DEALERS,or some other means that would have an economic impact on the TPG, that the time limit be reduced to a certain amount of days?

 

Consider alternative methods of encapsulation that prevent further deterioration?

 

No Dealer OR Collector "wants" to tie up their inventory or money for weeks or months. Why should the burden fall strictly to the non-Dealer?

 

I have body blemishes-certainly not market(read attractive to society at large) acceptable. Should I demand a re-evaluation of my acceptability under EEO and Equal Rights laws? The first hand knowledge was shared with me that I certainly wasn't issued that way, so it is not her fault, so don't come home because I am not her inventory anymore. She did her job and then passed me on to the market. I was certainly able to be collected and was market accepted at that time, so if I changed in the Holder, to bad.

 

Respectfully (of course)

John Curlis

John, I believe that the ultimate responsibility lies with the grading company which graded/encapsulated the coin. Therefore.......

 

If a collector owns a coin which has "turned" in the holder and is unhappy with it, he should forward it to the grading company. If, instead, he chooses to sell it, he should disclose the changed condition of the coin to potential buyers.

 

Likewise, if a dealer ends up with such a coin and prefers not to forward it to the grading company, he should disclose the changed condition of the coin to potential buyers.

 

And if an auction house receives such a coin on consignment, it should offer to forward the coin to the grading company, or sell it as is, but with disclosure of the coin's (changed) condition.

 

Finally, I can't see a legitimate reason why NGC and PCGS wont/don't handle such situations in a timely manner. We might disagree as what constitutes "timely", but clearly, it is less time than the grading companies apparently currently take in many instances.

 

Thank you for "encouraging" me to address the issue head-on.

 

[noow]

coinguy1

 

......

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Mark,

No "thanks" is necessary, especially to me.

 

I am certain we have the same "view" of the issue at hand- what is best for the numismatic community at large, and the responsibility of a service provider toward the community, made all the more important because of the simple fact that the community paid for a service with the clear understanding of reliance (trust/dependence/confidence, according to Mr. Webster).

 

When the trust and confidence and dependence is eroded or questioned, and the action or inaction of the service provider to correct the erosion is not sincere (read timely and equitable), then it is logical for the ENTIRE numismatic community to confront the service provider and demand performance that restores reliance.

 

Your answers were and are logical.

 

Respectfrully,

john Curlis

 

[Houston Investor]

If it is beyond the return period your out of luck. I would try the grading company.

 

Unfortunately, this is one of the risks of certified coins. Something like the 1957 50c above I would crack it out and dip it if graading co not good option. The dark area may need repeated work with Q tip soaked in dip. There is also NCS.

 

At worst it might look good soldered to a money clip. I have found my soldering skills as a model railroader help me find a place for cull coins - moneyclips.

[Walkerfan]

If it is beyond the return period your out of luck. I would try the grading company.

 

Unfortunately, this is one of the risks of certified coins. Something like the 1957 50c above I would crack it out and dip it if graading co not good option. The dark area may need repeated work with Q tip soaked in dip. There is also NCS.

 

At worst it might look good soldered to a money clip. I have found my soldering skills as a model railroader help me find a place for cull coins - moneyclips.

 

Or you can make a nice Bolo tie out of it! YEE HAW!!

 

Stylin' and profiling!!

[Conder101]

No Dealer OR Collector "wants" to tie up their inventory or money for weeks or months. Why should the burden fall strictly to the non-Dealer?

Assuming the dealer sells the coin to a collector at an appropriate reduction because of the problem, it makes sense for the collector to handle the burden because since he bought the coin for a collection the money spent on it is going to be tied up for months or even years anyway. A dealer needs to be able to have his capital turning and turning and can't take the time loss while the coin is being reviewed. A collector who isn't going to be reselling the coin for years is not put in any hardship waiting for the coin to come back from the TPG. Of course the price paid for the coin should allow for the cost of the shipping and insurance. (Unless they are likely to be reimbursed for it by the TPG compensation.)

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Logical considerations.

 

It is possible that my suggested partial solutions in the form of questions was not noticed:

 

"Sell the coin with clear commentary....and offer it for fair market value...."

 

"Offer to support efforts and cost for returning the coin.....".

 

These partial suggested solutions prevent "....the burden from falling stricty to the non-Dealer....".

 

So, it would seem you and I are in agreement, and you have paraphrased my thoughts.

 

I thank you for your consideration of my ramblings.

 

Now, if the majority of the Numismatic Community can join in efforts of improving the present situation, we may collectively be able to be considered for nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize in World Numismatics.

 

Of course, if we won, the recognition would be quickly undermined, because we would immediately be added to the Evil Empire List, due to worldwide War erupting because nobody in the Numismatic Community could agree how to distribute the monetary award.....

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis