An Extremely Limited Analysis of PCGS and NGC Turnaround Times & Grading

[TomB]

Please take this post for what it's worth; essentially an anecdotal account of grading standards and turn-around times at PCGS and NGC as experienced by one person. The total number of coins in this sample is less than 100, they are all vividly toned and are also all from the 20th century.

 

During the first day of the December Baltimore show I submitted a group of coins, under the Economy tier, to NGC. This was December 8, 2003. The coins were toned Lincoln cents and Buffalo nickels. I asked David Lange for his opinion on one particular Lincoln cent since PCGS had previously bagged it as AT even though I had its twin slabbed by PCGS. David thought the toning real, however, he cautioned that there was no guarantee that the grader(s) would think similarly. The coins were submitted and then sent back to me on January 13, 2004. This is a turnaround time 39 days total. While my pre-submission grades averaged 63.8, NGC's grades averaged 63.6 and this grade difference is surprising since I am, in general, a little more strict than the TPGs. The previously bagged Lincoln cent, a 1938 I graded PF63BN that has intense purple toning, came back PF63BN. All the NGC graded coins are already sold, some of them months ago. I was satisfied with the experience.

 

Similarly, during the first day of the FUN show, on January 8,2004, an Economy submission was given to PCGS. This submission contained all the toned Roosevelt dimes that I have written about previously. These coins were predominantly from two hoards that I had obtained, one hoard having very nice to monster reverse toning and the other having deeply toned, even obverse and reverses. The deeply toned coins were hammered in their grades from PCGS while the reverse toned pieces came in just where I expected. It seemed the deeply toned coins were graded on a strict technical basis and then punished a bit for the toning while the reverse toned coins, somewhat lighter in nature, were given a boost for their color. The coins were shipped on April 12, 2004. This is a turnaround time of 95 days. The pre-submission grades I gave the coins averaged 66.2 while the PCGS grades averaged 65.9. I was again surprised by the grade difference since I grade a little tighter on nicely toned coins than the TPGs. This submission has not yet been delivered to me so I can't really comment on the grades of the individual coins. As for the overall grades, they are fair, however, the turnaround time is abysmal.

 

In summary-

 

Economy turnaround time: NGC 39 days; PCGS 95 days

Grade difference: NGC -0.2; PCGS -0.3

 

The TPGs seem to be grading nicely toned coins a bit more harshly than the have in the past. Also, if you need a turnaround time that is reasonable so as to move inventory or create cash flow, you are in trouble if you use PCGS as you will have everything tied up for three months.

[chinook]

Tom I think you should compete in the PCGS grading contest.

[DonHeath]

Tom, assuming a dealer is able to "turn" his/her investment at least twice using NGC in the period they would be waiting for grades at PCGS, I expect NGC is quite busy.

[gmarguli]

The deeply toned coins were hammered in their grades from PCGS while the reverse toned pieces came in just where I expected. It seemed the deeply toned coins were graded on a strict technical basis and then punished a bit for the toning while the reverse toned coins, somewhat lighter in nature, were given a boost for their color.

 

and then

 

As for the overall grades, they are fair, however, the turnaround time is abysmal.

 

I'm a little confused. You say that they hammered their grades, but they are fair?

 

Usually the services, especially PCGS, love the deep mint set toned coins of the 50's - if that's what these coins were.

 

 

The TPGs seem to be grading nicely toned coins a bit more harshly than the have in the past.

 

I can't comment on PCGS from personal experience, but for NGC, over the past few months I've been getting the feeling that nicely toned coins are given a rather large boost currently. Maybe I'm just too strict on grading them (very possible as people frequently tell me I'm a brutal grader), but I've had quite a few very nicely toned coins come back 2 grades higher than I was expecting. From a technical standpoint I think my grades were fair, but the color (eye appeal) gave the coins a big boost in the grade.

 

 

Economy turnaround time: NGC 39 days; PCGS 95 days

 

My recent NGC economy submission ran the same - maybe a few days less. I was rather surprised as I was expecting them to be longer.

 

I did some NCS -> NGC submissions and they were completed rather quickly - under 30 days - and they did a stunning job on the coins.

 

My last ANACS 5-day express submission took 20 days door-to-door which is much longer than the so-called 5 day service. They also hammered me on grades (insert ouch Graemlin).

[braddick]

For the most part I've stopped using PCGS because of the turn-a-round times and the disapointment of bodybags. NGC has been right around 30- 35 days per submission on my last five.

I've recently sent ANACS a grouping of coins and out of eight vivid toners, seven came back as AT! That is somewhat surprising as coins pulled from the same batch all came back as authentically toned a few weeks ago.

I should post a photo of two identical Ikes, both with the same color and appeal, the first being graded four months ago, the second just returned to me this last week. The first is MS65 and the second is net graded, MS60 for AT.

Interesting.

 

I will also add that a Morgan NGC deemed as questionable color was also AT'ed with ANACS.

The Services are tightening up on color a bit, or so it would appear.

[gmarguli]

I've recently sent ANACS a grouping of coins and out of eight vivid toners, seven came back as AT! That is somewhat surprising as coins pulled from the same batch all came back as authentically toned a few weeks ago.

 

My ANACS submission which I mentioned above, I got those coins back yesterday. They ATed a coin which was slabbed by PCGS and also deemed OK by 3 other pro-graders. The toning isn't close to AT. It's not even special toning, just blah mint set toning.

[TomB]

I'm a little confused. You say that they hammered their grades, but they are fair?

I can see where I was not completely clear in my analysis of how fair the grades were. The deeply toned coins represented a small percentage of the overall coins graded while the nicely, reverse toned coins represented a much larger percentage of the submission. So, since I got hammered on a few coins, but slightly rewarded on a somewhat greater number of coins, I think that the average isn't too far off what I expected. Although I think the grading was essentially fair as a lot, I wasn't completely happy with one or two coins that I think they missed. However, I can't comment too much on those coins as I can't remember what they really look like.

[jom]

I asked David Lange for his opinion on one particular Lincoln cent since PCGS had previously bagged it as AT even though I had its twin slabbed by PCGS.

 

I've recently sent ANACS a grouping of coins and out of eight vivid toners, seven came back as AT! That is somewhat surprising as coins pulled from the same batch all came back as authentically toned a few weeks ago.

 

They ATed a coin which was slabbed by PCGS and also deemed OK by 3 other pro-graders. The toning isn't close to AT

 

The three above quotes, all from three different submission experts, tells me that I'm correct in thinking these companies really don't know what they are doing. This is only a small sample of what I've read over the years concerning grade submission. I could fill a book from quotes like this. I believe I came to the correct decision to not waste my money sending coins in for grading. I feel genuinely bad for coin dealers who have to go through with this non-sense.

 

Tom, assuming a dealer is able to "turn" his/her investment at least twice using NGC in the period they would be waiting for grades at PCGS, I expect NGC is quite busy.

 

Wouldn't you think then their turn around time to be LARGER?

 

jom

[gmarguli]

Tom, assuming a dealer is able to "turn" his/her investment at least twice using NGC in the period they would be waiting for grades at PCGS, I expect NGC is quite busy.

 

Wouldn't you think then their turn around time to be LARGER?

 

I'm not sure if NGC has more graders (I think they have more graders doing the bulk moderns, which probably helps a lot) or if they are just run much more efficient or what, but when you're grading more coins than the competition and turning them around in a fraction of the time, something seems wrong with PCGS.

 

From what I've experienced and/or heard/read, NGC is basically turning around regular submissions in about 2/3 the time, economy in 1/3 the time, world standard in 1/3 the time, world economy in 1/6 the time, and errors in 1/5 the time.

[TomB]

PCGS might be currently slow in more than just the area of grading coins. My submission to them was handed to them on January 8 yet they note it as being logged in on January 27. That's 19 days between accepting a submission and logging it into their system. I would assume that during this delay there was no progress made on the grading of the coins. So, they have issues other than simply grading the coins slowly.

[jom]

That's 19 days between accepting a submission and logging it into their system.

 

Slow internet upload connection?

 

jom

[IrishMike]

Whatever system that PCGS is using is not adequate for the volume of submissions they receive. Logically it appears that they need to revamp the process. The question is whether or not they have the management expertise on staff do that.

[jtryka]

Well, I don't submit much at all to any of the services, but I did hand in 2 submissions to NGC at the Portland ANA. One was a modern group of 7 coins and an early bird crossover of a common date IHC. They were logged in dated 3/29, which is the Monday after the show, so pretty fast. Now it's about 3 weeks later, and the moderns went into "Quality Control" on Friday, and the early bird is still listed as "Scheduled for Grading." I am not sure what this means as I expected the IHC to be done first. Either way, for a small submission, the times seem reasonable, I'll let you know later whether I think the grades were reasonable as well!

[gmarguli]

PCGS is slow to log the guaranteed turnaround submissions into their system so they don't have to pay for missing the turnaround time guarantee.

 

It's not just coins. I've heard a lot of complaints about slow logging of the sportscards. Some people have reported well over a month to get logged into the system.

[braddick]

PCGS is slow to log the guaranteed turnaround submissions into their system so they don't have to pay for missing the turnaround time guarantee.

 

It's not just coins. I've heard a lot of complaints about slow logging of the sportscards. Some people have reported well over a month to get logged into the system.

Absolutley true. My favorite story is regarding my "15 day" submission with PCGS. I dropped it off at Long Beach, at the show, and I received it back, 45 DAYS LATER (!) I was told it hadn't entered PCGS system until about 20 days into the process. So, from Long Beach to Newport Beach is 20 days. The guarantee is always only as valid as the word of the person offering it. Lesson learned.

[Hoot]

I'll have to go back and look at some expected vs. received grades from this year, both NGC and PCGS, but the one thing I've noted is that each of the services are grading nearly identically in terms of how "tough" they are in the final analysis. I've had two disappointments with PCGS who graded a buffalo nickel I submitted as AU58 when it was clearly NOT AU, and also when they would not cross a coin from ANACS even when I specified that I'd accept one grade lower. NGC got both of those coins right, but it cost me two submissions vs. one and the time spent, of course. BTW, I'd agree that darkly toned coins are getting hammered in grades, and I had one buffalo nickel with beautiful target toning grade 63 when I thought it was a dead-on 65. I think that it was downgraded for having "questionable toning" but nobody was going to say that outright. Stupid.

 

I have submitted about 200 coins (total) over the past 5 months and NGC beats PCGS hands down for speed of return. With PCGS and economy or even regular submissions, I find it best to "submit and forget." That said, I submitted some coins to NGC in Portland that were listed as "Received" on March 30 and are still listed as "Received" but not "Scheduled for Grading" or further down the road. Odd.

[gmarguli]

I submitted some coins to NGC in Portland that were listed as "Received" on March 30 and are still listed as "Received" but not "Scheduled for Grading" or further down the road. Odd.

 

I'd call them to find out what happened. I had one submission stuck in Quality Control for a while. It took contacting NGC to get the submission kicked to the next stage.

[jtryka]

Well, my supposedly slower modern submission was shipped already, but the early bird crossover is still in limbo!