The problem with NGC prong holders (NGC reply posted)

[Hard Times]

Now what would be REALLY interesting, is if Lance submits it for grading to PCGS or NGC again, would it grade, or would they call it 'damaged'? I will chip in a portion of the cost to see that tested if Lance will report the result here.....

[Keigwin]

I don't have high hopes that NGC or Heritage will take care of things. The TPG's are very rigid about cracked out coins. And I really don't see this as Heritage's problem.

 

Still, I'd like to hear from NGC on the matter. If they refuse to do anything I will resubmit it for grading with NGC.

 

If it gets "genuined" for the hit, or downgraded because of it, I'll probably write a nasty letter with all the documention, and end further business with them. The letter will do nothing but maybe I'll feel a little better.

 

And if it is reslabbed at AU58 I guess I'll have to reconsider my grading skills.

Lance.

[TomB]

It still looks mighty attractive and I find it not bothersome on an AU coin.

[FishyOne]

I don't have high hopes that NGC or Heritage will take care of things. The TPG's are very rigid about cracked out coins. And I really don't see this as Heritage's problem.

 

Still, I'd like to hear from NGC on the matter. If they refuse to do anything I will resubmit it for grading with NGC.

 

If it gets "genuined" for the hit, or downgraded because of it, I'll probably write a nasty letter with all the documention, and end further business with them. The letter will do nothing but maybe I'll feel a little better.

 

And if it is reslabbed at AU58 I guess I'll have to reconsider my grading skills.

Lance.

 

I bet it re-grades 55 at least.

[Keigwin]

I heard back from NGC. The matter was taken to the President who said the coin warrants its AU58 grade and that NGC would be willing to reholder it at that grade.

 

I have not yet called Heritage and am on the fence.

 

Thanks for the advice.

Lance.

[James_OldeTowne]

What matters most is whether or not you like the coin.

 

Personally, I think you will have a very difficult time finding a nicer commercial AU-58 in the same price range.

 

Kudos to NGC, as they prove once again that they are all about the collector!

[rrantique]

I heard back from NGC. The matter was taken to the President who said the coin warrants its AU58 grade and that NGC would be willing to reholder it at that grade.

 

I have not yet called Heritage and am on the fence.

 

Thanks for the advice.

Lance.

 

I think thats great news Lance. (thumbs u

[Walkerfan]

Yes, I think it's GREAT that NGC is willing to help you out and will re-slab that coin. I would jump on that offer!

 

I agree w/James. If you don't like it, then just sell it after it has been re-slabbed. You can probably get most of your money back....who knows, maybe all of it or maybe more. Now that is will be re-slabbed you will have a much better chance.

[michael]

coin greatly bothers me

 

MY OPINION

 

and also my opinion if it was my coin

 

when you get it back re slabbed as au 58

 

sell it and you might get more than you paid ............ or not either way a very small price to pay for a good education

 

only time will tell

 

and with pronged holders that covers part of the coin there could be something under the prong that you might not like

 

then if you DO buy pronged holdered coins DONT EVER BREAK THEM OUT OF THEIR RESPECTIVE HOLDERS

 

 

 

 

[michael]

on pronged holdered coins i only like them if the prong doesnot cover any of the coin rims either side

 

it is possible to get this on larger coins that are slabbed

 

other than that i dont like most but not all pronged holdered coins

 

because of the prongs that go over the rims and sometimes into the coins fields

[The Penny Lady]

Lance, I also posted my response ATS, but this is an interesting situation, that's for sure. I personally like the prong holders since they allow us to see more of the rim, but it is interesting to note that it can also hide flaws such as it did with your coin. And I could be wrong, but IMO I don't really see where Heritage has much liability for what a TPG holder masks - it is the consignor that should have informed Heritage of this flaw, so perhaps if you contacted Heritage, they could go back to their consignor for some sort of compensation (but of course, it may be that the consignor was not the one who submitted the coin and also had no clue as to what was hidden behind the prong).

 

In any event, I think it wouldn't hurt to send a link to this discussion to both NGC and Heritage so they can see how their customers and potential customers are reacting to this specific issue. Perhaps it will cause NGC to be more alert to how they place coins in their holders.

 

As an aside, I submitted a penny with three clipped planchets to NGC and it just so happened that the prong holders were in the exact same location as two of the clips, which were not major clips, so I asked them to rotate the coin so the clips were more prevalent, and they did.

[Keigwin]

Thanks, Charmy, and others for the advice, sympathy, and different perspectives.

 

I have not involved Heritage because I really don't see it as their problem.

 

NGC will go so far as reslabbing it but I don't see any great benefit. The coin and the price paid are unchanged. I bought it for an album which is why it was cracked.

 

Putting it back in a holder and selling it doesn't sit right with me unless there is full disclosure. Which means I'd likely take a loss.

 

The ding across the rim and star are significant enough to spoil the coin for me. It doesn't feel like a bag hit or circulation damage. Something unusual struck it, large and narrow and straight, and the damage mars an otherwise pretty, scarce variety.

 

Everyone knows that once you've gotten worked up about a problem coin you rarely get over it.

 

So, I'm stuck holding the bag I think. I guess it's time I moved on.

Lance.

[robec1347]

Not to change the subject Lance, and I do feel for you, but I just checked out your Lincoln registry set (Uncommon Cents) and it's fabulous. All high grade and 99.9% imaged. Great job!!

[Schatzy]

but I just checked out your Lincoln registry set (Uncommon Cents) and it's fabulous. All high grade and 99.9% imaged. Great job!!

 

I also checked it out!! (thumbs u

[Spooly]

I never did like NGC's prong holders.

[Walkerfan]

but I just checked out your Lincoln registry set (Uncommon Cents) and it's fabulous. All high grade and 99.9% imaged. Great job!!

 

I also checked it out!! (thumbs u

 

Wow, I agree; what a fabulous set!! I had no idea. Great Job!!

[FishyOne]

I never did like NGC's prong holders.

 

On this subject alone and not the OPs coin in particular: I like prong holders except on very small diameter pieces (i.e. quarter-eagle and smaller).

 

On 5 cent nickel pieces on up in size, they set off the coin better, at least to my eyes.

[tejas1836]

Clear plastic prongs might be a partial solution.

 

Great looking Lincoln set, Lance. Your images are awesome.

[James_OldeTowne]

Putting it back in a holder and selling it doesn't sit right with me unless there is full disclosure. Which means I'd likely take a loss.

What do you mean by "full disclosure"? The coin was graded AU-58, not MS-63!

 

I will still maintain that such a ding is fully in keeping with the assigned grade. The coin deserves to be put back into a holder, and be destined for someone who will appreciate it as it is.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It IS a neato coin, after all, in superb grade, and a rare variety to boot...

 

 

[Keigwin]

Putting it back in a holder and selling it doesn't sit right with me unless there is full disclosure. Which means I'd likely take a loss.

What do you mean by "full disclosure"? The coin was graded AU-58, not MS-63!

 

I will still maintain that such a ding is fully in keeping with the assigned grade. The coin deserves to be put back into a holder, and be destined for someone who will appreciate it as it is.

NGC obviously agrees with you, James.

 

By "full disclosure" I mean if the coin is reholdered in a similar way I would feel obligated to disclose that a significant rim ding is hiding behind the prong. I am guessing that many buyers would be turned off, not knowing what it looks like.

 

I could ask NGC to place it in a non-prong holder, or rotate the coin so it is not hidden, I suppose.

 

Either way I feel certain it will be valued less.

 

----------

Thanks for the kind words about my early Lincolns and photos. I built it years ago but occasionally upgrade. I mostly enjoy early US coins, cents and halves, but I bounce around a little.

Lance.

[James_OldeTowne]

By "full disclosure" I mean if the coin is reholdered in a similar way I would feel obligated to disclose that a significant rim ding is hiding behind the prong. I am guessing that many buyers would be turned off, not knowing what it looks like.

Ah, gotcha. Unfortunately, it will never happen.

 

I touched on this earlier, but will elaborate a bit. I once cracked what seemed like a beautiful and badly undergraded Classic Head large cent out of a slab. I'm tellin' ya, the coin was just begging to be freed. I won't mention the brand of plastic, but let's just say the gloopy, gloppy insert completely hid the rim and edge. The coin was graded seemingly ultraconservatively as F-15, but looked VF-30+ to me.

 

It wasn't until I had it out that I discovered that the edge had a jagged knife cut going fully a third of the way around the coin!! I remember being so disgusted that I slapped the danged coin upon the desktop and dinged my desk . (The desk still has the ding.)

 

So, I understand your stance, but the truth is in my case, the coin was almost certainly appropriately net-graded. I took my lumps, and did have to sell the coin with the cut disclosed on my raw Eagle holder.

 

This is just...one...more...reason... why I hate slabs of older coins, but love the new EdgeView holders. As you've discovered, the prongs aren't perfect, but had my cut up Classic Head been in an EdgeView holders, I would have seen the issue.

[coinman_23885]

Either way I feel certain it will be valued less.

Lance.

 

Maybe not. If NGC reholders the coin and the nick is clearly showing, you could always slap it on eBay with a catch line to the tune of "[a] recent example recently sold at Heritage Auctions for $XYZ." You may get lucky; I have seen some horrendous stuff sell at prices surprisingly close to retail. So as long as the nick appears in the photos, I say caveat emptor.

[coinman_23885]

So, I understand your stance, but the truth is in my case, the coin was almost certainly appropriately net-graded. I took my lumps, and did have to sell the coin with the cut disclosed on my raw Eagle holder.

 

 

Did you get your money back out of your investment?

[Keigwin]

Great story, James. And I can certainly see your side of the debate.

 

This is something the TPG's must struggle with all the time on crosses, and explains why they are so tough. The success rate ATS is around 40%, and that includes crosses where owners allowed lower grades. I'm sure NGC's statistics are comparable.

 

The TPG's can't see the third side and yet have to commit to a minimum grade before cracking. Very risky.

 

I do enjoy seeing the edge of coins, particularly on the CBH's I collect. My objection to the prong holder, until now, has been about photography. Maybe some day we'll get holders with technology. Anyone ever seen one of these? I haven't.

Lance.

[James_OldeTowne]

So, I understand your stance, but the truth is in my case, the coin was almost certainly appropriately net-graded. I took my lumps, and did have to sell the coin with the cut disclosed on my raw Eagle holder.

 

 

Did you get your money back out of your investment?

Nope. I don't recall how much I lost, but it was likely a couple hundred dollars (coins were cheaper then).

 

Anyone ever seen one of these? I haven't.

Yes, several times, as those guys set up at the St. Louis show every year. I find those slabs very distracting. I just prefer the EdgeView technology. Simple, elegant, and effective.

[coinman_23885]

So, I understand your stance, but the truth is in my case, the coin was almost certainly appropriately net-graded. I took my lumps, and did have to sell the coin with the cut disclosed on my raw Eagle holder.

 

 

Did you get your money back out of your investment?

Nope. I don't recall how much I lost, but it was likely a couple hundred dollars (coins were cheaper then).

 

Now I'm afraid to crack any of my coins that I was hoping to cross-over or to submit for regrade.

 

I heard back from NGC. The matter was taken to the President who said the coin warrants its AU58 grade and that NGC would be willing to reholder it at that grade.

 

I have not yet called Heritage and am on the fence.

 

Thanks for the advice.

Lance.

 

So what did Heritage say? I genuinely hope this works out for you. I wish you the best.

 

 

 

By "full disclosure" I mean if the coin is reholdered in a similar way I would feel obligated to disclose that a significant rim ding is hiding behind the prong. I am guessing that many buyers would be turned off, not knowing what it looks like.

Ah, gotcha. Unfortunately, it will never happen.

 

I touched on this earlier, but will elaborate a bit. I once cracked what seemed like a beautiful and badly undergraded Classic Head large cent out of a slab. I'm tellin' ya, the coin was just begging to be freed. I won't mention the brand of plastic, but let's just say the gloopy, gloppy insert completely hid the rim and edge. The coin was graded seemingly ultraconservatively as F-15, but looked VF-30+ to me.

 

It wasn't until I had it out that I discovered that the edge had a jagged knife cut going fully a third of the way around the coin!! I remember being so disgusted that I slapped the danged coin upon the desktop and dinged my desk . (The desk still has the ding.)

 

So, I understand your stance, but the truth is in my case, the coin was almost certainly appropriately net-graded. I took my lumps, and did have to sell the coin with the cut disclosed on my raw Eagle holder.

 

This is just...one...more...reason... why I hate slabs of older coins, but love the new EdgeView holders. As you've discovered, the prongs aren't perfect, but had my cut up Classic Head been in an EdgeView holders, I would have seen the issue.

 

So between the Hibernia fiasco and this, which one makes you dislike PCGS (and grading services in general) most?

[James_OldeTowne]

So between the Hibernia fiasco and this, which one makes you dislike PCGS (and grading services in general) most?

No, not really. Ultimately, I have to take full responsibility. Nobody made me crack the coin out; it was my decision. I actually could have chosen to sell the coin in the holder at a premium, since the cause of the "silent net grade" was well hidden, and anyone would have thought it was undergraded. But I got greedy instead, thinking I could bump it up 15 - 20 points.

 

[Conder101]

Maybe not. If NGC reholders the coin and the nick is clearly showing, you could always slap it on eBay with a catch line to the tune of "[a] recent example recently sold at Heritage Auctions for $XYZ."

Well that would be "Full" disclosure.

[The Penny Lady]

Clear plastic prongs might be a partial solution.

 

Apparently, that is exactly what PCGS has just started doing. Their new holders are clear prong holders as shown and discussed ATS HERE.