Experiences of Coin Collectors with Damaged Goods.

[Oldtrader3]

I have tried a couple of times to prod Mark Feld (as an ex-Grader) into meaningful dialogue regarding damaged numismatic materials, specifically by graders, who willfully eat food and/or unwittingly bio-contaminate numismatic materials while being paid supposedly, to add value while grading. Mark will not touch this subject, except to say that "coins will not get graded" if steps are taken to protect antique art objects, which coins are, from damage by careless, ignorant handling and even professional grading contamination done unwittingly because these graders are not trained and are careless to the extreme of even leaving fingerprints on otherwise pristine coins that they handle. Ignorance is not bliss in the antiques industry and has never been so at least with every other venue but antique coins!

 

Maybe Mark Feld is too invested in the past to consider changing the future of this hobby for the better. I leave that open to him to address.

 

In the meantime, please consider that a coin is in fact a piece of antique material, almost like jewelry, often made of precious materials and always a window into the history of this country or any other country that issues coinage. Because of this special status of classical numismatic material, why is this material left open to contamination by careless handling of even professional graders who are supposed to be adding value to our investment in this material.

 

What I would like to find out is how many people on this forum own or have owned classic coins which have been damaged by the major grading companies,either through: bioburden (including hair), food and/ or other foreign materials that were contributed exclusively through the grading company themselves.

 

I figure that I have personally lost a large amount of money just from coins that were damaged during grading and put into holders with added bioburden that has diminished the value of the material that I submitted and paid to have ruined!

 

I do not have much time for this today and will come back and add to this topic as I have more time to do so. Thank you for any contributions that you may be willing to make. I will even post pictures later, when I have time, if anyone is interested in this topic and others are certainly welcome to do the same. Thank you for your time.

 

[Walkerfan]

OT3--I am VERY curious. Just how many times has this happened to you?? And how many submissions (approx.) have you made over the years?

[comicdonna]

So, do you currently submit coins for grading?

[MarkFeld]

I have tried a couple of times to prod Mark Feld (as an ex-Grader) into meaningful dialogue regarding damaged numismatic materials, specifically by graders, who willfully eat food and/or unwittingly bio-contaminate numismatic materials while being paid supposedly, to add value while grading. Mark will not touch this subject, except to say that "coins will not get graded"...

 

I do not recall your having asked me about that previously (other than, perhaps, in an off topic fashion in the midst of a thread I had started on a different subject, recently).

 

Please link the discussion containing the "coins will not get graded" quote you attributed to me, above. That way, I and others can see what comments led to that quote. As is, I don't know what you are talking about or to what that quote pertained.

 

If you will do that, I will be happy to "touch this subject" and address any questions you have, regarding graders and contamination of coins. If you can't or wont, I will feel that you were baiting me and will have no interest in a discussion.

[Oldtrader3]

I stated earlier that I have been very ill for about three years and during that period I have been only sending maybe a half dozen coins a year to the TPG's. Prior to that I submitted probably only a couple dozen to maybe 50 coins a year, after 1987. I do however, buy many coins and have bought many over the years that were in new holders through dealers who had submitted them either for me or for themselves. I used to buy raw and submit through dealers until 2002 when these forums became active and allowed direct submissions. During the past 30 some years, I have probably submitted 400 some coins to the services myself, mostly classic coins. The others I bought certified.

 

I realise that many of you submit many more coins than I do, that is one reason that I asked this question of you to get more information. Over the ten year period from 1996-2008, I bought and sold over $300,000 worth of coins, mostly pre 1933, US gold coins and classic silver. My present holdings, retired,ill and on a fixed income are somewhat less. My largest coin holdings at one time was well over $100K (at $400 gold prices). Plus, I do not buy many coins that cost over $3000. each.

 

For what it is worth, I have been collecting since about 1950, actively since 1964. I am almost 69 years old. I was a Medical Device Manufacturing Director of Engineering most of my life managing 10 plants in 8 countries, technically. I have never been a coin dealer, per se.

[TomB]

I had submitted a 1930s Merc to one of the big TPGs and the coin came back as a pop-top and even had the FB designation, too. The piece was submitted with spectacular original color and was quite valuable (at least to me). However, it had what appeared to be a rather obvious crumb of white bread stuck within the obverse portion of the slab in the cavity that contained the coin. Ugh. I informed the TPG customer service department and they were quite nice and told me to submit the coin for a no charge reholder. However, I sold it to another dealer who then submitted the coin for reholder. Later, I saw the coin at auction and could see the outline of where that crumb of bread had been stuck on the coin. Truly, if I had not known the bread crumb was previously in that spot then I likely would not have known to inspect the area for evidence carefully. Regardless, the crumb left a stain.

[Oldtrader3]

Tom, you are a professional Biologist and am I am sure, very aware of the spotting that bioburden of any sort causes, permanently, on any coin where it is allowed to sit for any length of time.

 

I recently bought a 1920's, MS66FB, PCGS, dime which has an obvious bioburden spot on the obverse adjacent to the date. It appears to be liquid (sputum) contamination which just suddenly appeared. I also recently bought a 1928-S Walker half with a very obvious carbon spot on both sides that was probably bioburden.

[Oldtrader3]

I will try and find it, Mark.

[MarkFeld]

I will try and find it, Mark.

Thanks, and I (think I) look forward to our discussion.

[Walkerfan]

Here u go. I took it upon myself to help out OT3

 

Graders' Breath

[Walkerfan]

I am interested in this topic, as well

[Oldtrader3]

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I am not good at this transferring actually, but the poster before you was referring to getting the grader's breath out of the equation (not the grader). The point is that: how do authenticators handle a rare piece of art? Even my dentist wears a face mask for some pretty delicate crown work, especially since I have had MRSA pneumonia and Tuberculosis. I am sure that there are fairly simple creative solutions to keeping food, saliva and hair out of slabs. I truly do believe in the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) as engineers are fond of saying. Even laminar flow filtered air hoods would help greatly. I would happily pay even $5 more to be assured of getting a clean coin back!

 

It really does depress me to see hair and food in slabs. I wonder how many really nice coins have been ruined (since even 1987) by fingerprints and stuff in slabs? Complex, bio-carbon molecules do great damage to coins. My real intention is not to make trouble, just to make things better.

[Walkerfan]

I posted it 4 u, OT. It is right b4 your last post

[comicdonna]

I have a question for Mark. When you graded coins for NGC, was food allowed in the grading room?

[physics-fan3.14]

I have purchased hundreds of slabbed coins. I've been collecting for 20 years. I've never seen a hair/piece of food/foreign substance in a slab.

[Oldtrader3]

Not being hard on you, but how old were you 20 years ago?

[Chris1976]

I have seen fibers on modern coins in both slabs and in capsules used by the US Mint itself. One example was one of the Bald Eagle coins I had recieved. It looked like a piece of lint had made its way into the capsule. (See included photo near the 1 o'clock area) While it is possible that another person may have opened the capsule from the mint and that was where the lint ball came from, it looked like it had been in there for quite sometime and it developed a tanish/grey spot where that lint ball had set.

 

Another example was with a statehood quarter that I used to own that was slabed by a company other than NGC (I wont post names) had a dark hair that was pinched in the seams of the case and it layed all the way across the coin itself. I did contact the tpg and they had me send it in for free reholdering.

 

-Chris#2

 

[MarkFeld]

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I am not good at this transferring actually, but the poster before you was referring to getting the grader's breath out of the equation (not the grader). The point is that: how do authenticators handle a rare piece of art? Even my dentist wears a face mask for some pretty delicate crown work, especially since I have had MRSA pneumonia and Tuberculosis. I am sure that there are fairly simple creative solutions to keeping food, saliva and hair out of slabs. I truly do believe in the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) as engineers are fond of saying. Even laminar flow filtered air hoods would help greatly. I would happily pay even $5 more to be assured of getting a clean coin back!

 

It really does depress me to see hair and food in slabs. I wonder how many really nice coins have been ruined (since even 1987) by fingerprints and stuff in slabs? Complex, bio-carbon molecules do great damage to coins. My real intention is not to make trouble, just to make things better.

 

Apparently, I don't see nearly as much contamination as you do on a percentage basis. However, my initial reaction to your suggestion of a mask, is that I think that it's probably a good idea.

 

Long ago, I experimented briefly with gloves, and found them to be very awkward.

 

 

I have no doubt that graders sometimes impart fingerprints to coins. But, I have no way of knowing how often they are responsible, as opposed to the current or previous owners of the coins.

 

I certainly have no quarrel with your concerns or suggestions.

[MarkFeld]

I have a question for Mark. When you graded coins for NGC, was food allowed in the grading room?

I think it must have been allowed - I spent a lot of hours in the grading room and don't remember always eating (whatever snacks I had) in the kitchen or at a restaurant. I do, however, remember taking frequent breaks from grading and washing my hands a lot.

 

Please keep in mind that I last graded at NGC in 1998, and do not know their current policies and procedures, etc.

[Oldtrader3]

The problem with wearing gloves is that most are already powdered with either talc or corn starch, either of which will end up on the coin and cause problems of their own. I have never found cotton gloves to be totally satisfactory allthough I do own some and use them for copper and such.

[leeg]

 

 

Sent it back under the Grade Guarantee. Came back same grade looking like this:

 

 

[Dudley the 1st]

Thats totally unacceptable . It looked like pizza sauce on that coin. I have been fortunate to not have similar problems with any of my purchases, even Mint Direct issues. I personally believe it is in the best interest of any TPG to take whatever precautions are required to prevent such contamination. Face it, to ignore the next indicated step in maintaining or becoming a leading service provider is nothing short of self-deficating in public.

[Oldtrader3]

Shown below is an 1861 Half Dime (MS) which has a fairly large spot of bio-contamination on the shield which appeared in the few months following certification. It was not there when I bought the coin.

 

[delta]

I'm in absolutely full agreement with the idea of requiring that grading be done under conditions where coins are not prone to being contaminated by the graders, slabbers, and others involved in the process. Even if it costs slightly more. A facemask seems to be really requisite especially since the graders are talking among themselves. It's a crucial issue.

 

However, among my own TPG submissions I haven't noticed any added detritus, although I've gotten them in with purchases from the US Mint.

[Oldtrader3]

I realize that it is really hard to wear a filtermask while working. I worked for many years in Class 100,000 clean rooms (Class II) with some laminar flow booths for cleaner operations (Class III). We had to masks and hair covers while in the production areas. This was in addition to snap closure nylon half-smocks. Everyone who entered the room had to wash their hands and go through a particulate deionizer air array as well.

 

It might be easier to have laminar flow and sleeve covers in a grading room. Plus, we never allowed even chewing gum (no food) in the clean rooms. Maybe grading rooms need to be segregated into room classes by grading fee or something, in order to give people choices?

 

Pricing on many classic coins in higher grades are getting pretty high now and the public is going to demand guarantees on particulate, especially bio-particulate, eventually. Any human amino acid contamination on a coin will take its toll eventually in reduced luster and spots.

 

Just kind of talking out loud here. The object would be to not punish graders or add too much cost to the grading operations.

[ldhair]

How would a clean room deal with the particulate that would come in on the coins and holders? I would think that would all have to be cleaned up and a new holder used before the coins entered the grading room. I would guess the gloves, keyboards, loops and work stations would need to be cleaned all the time as well.

Sounds like a lot of extra handling of the coins and work that would really slow down the process. I know nothing about clean rooms but can't see the services ever doing this. I guess just mask of some type would be a good start.

[mtnstyne]

I realize that it is really hard to wear a filtermask while working. I worked for many years in Class 100,000 clean rooms (Class II) with some laminar flow booths for cleaner operations (Class III). We had to masks and hair covers while in the production areas. This was in addition to snap closure nylon half-smocks. Everyone who entered the room had to wash their hands and go through a particulate deionizer air array as well.

 

It might be easier to have laminar flow and sleeve covers in a grading room. Plus, we never allowed even chewing gum (no food) in the clean rooms. Maybe grading rooms need to be segregated into room classes by grading fee or something, in order to give people choices?

 

Pricing on many classic coins in higher grades are getting pretty high now and the public is going to demand guarantees on particulate, especially bio-particulate, eventually. Any human amino acid contamination on a coin will take its toll eventually in reduced luster and spots.

 

Just kind of talking out loud here. The object would be to not punish graders or add too much cost to the grading operations.

 

While I think it should be easy to implement low to no cost measures such as hair nets, face masks, and policies banning eating in the grading areas and hand washing upon entering...I don't think there should be different grading fees for this. It should be a standard. Would the "economy" level be renamed the "guess what I had for lunch while grading your coin" level?" If it has that much of a cost impact, raise the fees accross the board and just do it better.

 

When you go out to eat dinner do you want to be asked which menu you would like to order off of? The cheaper one doesn't require the cooks to wash hands after going to the rest room, they can smoke while cooking and don't have to wear hair nets...IT SHOULD BE AN INDUSTRY STANDARD in my humble opinion.

[Catbert]

Surely a production environment at these TPG's involve more than quality control of the grade assigned and whether encapsulation was done right. If so, then they should be able to measure the gaps to standard that OP proves. I wonder what was in place when Mark was there.

[Chris1976]

I'm sure to be burned at the stake for this, but here it goes...... While it sounds perfect to have them working in a cleanroom with all the top of the line gear and such, I think thats a bit far fetched. While I do agree that they should have at least minimal protection such as hair nets, filter masks (even the cheap paper filter ones you use while painting a home), and some form of gloves or at least finger cots. Which would greatly reduce alot of the issues at little cost, its just hard to warrent the huge expense of the cleanroom and the gear to accompany it. I could understand that if they were a museum, but its a bit overboard for what they primarily handle.

 

Other factors that could contibute to the issue with coins changing within the holders would be (but not limited to) weather changes between shipper and tpg, care at the shipper such as not leaving the packages out in the rain or hot moist air such as down here in Florida. More issues that contribute are particles on the coin holders that they are sent in, possible pin holes of the 2x2's they were stored in (leading cause to carbon spots for stored coins), how the owner or the owners prior to the submiter handled and stored the coins etc.

 

Theres just simply so much that can contribute to some of these issues we have been given examples of. Especially when buying an older coin in raw form. Theres no telling how many people owned it or how they handled it for that matter. The food thing, yes, I see that being the TPG's fault for sure, same with anything phyisical you may find in the finished product aside from the coin and label themselves. I guess to put an end to my post it would be best to say that there need to be improvements all the way around, most of which may never happen as it involves monitoring the coin in question from the time it is produced, until the time its tucked away in an archival slab.

 

-Chris#2

[lcoopie]

this whole discussion reinforces the premise that

if a coin is in an older holder, and is stable,

it should be left there

unless there is a good reason

and realizing that there are risks involved