GRADING 101 hairline identification

[grade it-migration]

When I grade coins, the first thing I look for is hairlines raw or slabbed..

 

This is easy to do at shows since the lighting is most of time florescent or mercury vapor.

 

A easy way to start learning this extreme grade reducing or upgradable defect is to use a few common clad or silver circulated Roosevelt's or penny's being shiny. Rotate the coins to look for luster and eye appeal, nicks,cuts, scrapes, hairlines and contaminates. Do this under a incandescent light without a loupe.

 

This is market grading..and the coin should shout out to you the grade at this point and will be given that grade.

 

Under the same lighting use a loupe rotate the coin in all directions increasing angles as much as 60+degrees as if you where panning for gold the coin being the pan. Rotate the coin a little and tip the coin again till you make a 360 degree rotation. You should see hairlines at one position appear and a slight rotation they will disappear. They will be a multi cluster of uniform direction lines close together.

On older coins this is caused by improper cleaning. But for the most part on circulated modern coins, counting machines or just abrasion is the culprit in the circulated state..If you grade OBR (original bank rolls) as I do, hairlines are quite common even if BU because of the mechanization from the MS (mint state: meaning if caught the second it was minted). to the OBR.

 

Market graders do not look at this type of coin under magnification. As I have been told directly by a highly reliable sources employed by the top TPG.

 

Coins that make it to a major auction sale down the road will be looked closely for this defect and others defects by serious bidders. Buy the coin not the holder....

 

 

 

 

[lehigh96]

25 posts in 14 days, each more incoherent than the last. Have another drink brother, cheers!

[grade it-migration]

I don't drink kool aid as many of the posters here do. Sorry for the incoherent posts I thought it might be an education for some including the tpg's....

 

Your post on hairline identification would be helpful if I got anything wrong...

[lehigh96]

I don't drink kool aid as many of the posters here do. Sorry for the incoherent posts I thought it might be an education for some including the tpg's....

 

Your post on hairline identification would be helpful if I got anything wrong...

 

Based on your current credibility on this forum, I have no confidence that you could discern the difference between hairlines and die polish lines. You say you have all these PCGS & NGC coins which were dipped and are hairlined. Can you post a photograph of just one of these coins?

[grade it-migration]

I am not writing the Great American Novel here.

 

One of cival manner might have brought up the differance between hairlines and die polish and explained it.

 

Is this not an educational forum or is it a kool aid hatchet job for the idle rich or coin dealers?

 

I picked a circulated coin knowing die polish would not remain on the devices of a circulated coin.

 

Die polish is grinding marks are the result of polishing the dies to eliminate the defect marks when a die has been clashed or damaged.

 

Try the experiment stated in the OP and then try to photo the hairlines, you will see what I mean.

 

Never a post on hairline identification here. Since it such a big problem with graded coins I thought the silent majority might want learn about it.

 

An intellectual embellishment from knowledgeable forum members would have been a plus. But ............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ldhair]

The grading standards for MS-66 silver can be a bit tough for folks to understand. It's not easy to explain what minimal hairlines are, in words and opinions come into play. Killer strike, luster and eye appeal can allow the coin in a 66 holder but again it brings up opinions. I don't feel we will ever all agree on coins such as this.

[MarkFeld]

When I grade coins, the first thing I look for is hairlines raw or slabbed..

 

This is easy to do at shows since the lighting is most of time florescent or mercury vapor.

 

A easy way to start learning this extreme grade reducing or upgradable defect is to use a few common clad or silver circulated Roosevelt's or penny's being shiny. Rotate the coins to look for luster and eye appeal, nicks,cuts, scrapes, hairlines and contaminates. Do this under a bright florescent light without a loupe.

 

This is market grading..and the coin should shout out to you the grade at this point and will be given that grade.

 

Under the same lighting use a loupe rotate the coin in all directions increasing angles as much as 60+degrees as if you where panning for gold the coin being the pan. Rotate the coin a little and tip the coin again till you make a 360 degree rotation. You should see hairlines at one position appear and a slight rotation they will disappear. They will be a multi cluster of uniform direction lines close together.

On older coins this is caused by improper cleaning but for the most part on circulated modern coins. counting machines or just abrasion is the culprit in the circulated state..If you grade OBR (original bank rolls) as I do, hairlines are quite common even if BU because of the mechanization from the MS (mint state: meaning if caught the second it was minted). to the OBR.

 

Market graders do not look at this type of coin under magnification. As I have been told directly by a highly reliable sources employed by the top TPG.

 

Coins that make it to a major auction sale down the road will be looked closely for this defect and others defects by serious bidders. Buy the coin not the holder....

 

 

 

I disagree that show lighting is necessarily good for examining coins. And that what you described above is "market grading". And that hairlines on older coins are necessarily caused by cleaning.

[JStull]

As asked by numerous members of this forum on the other thread, why don't you post photos of the alleged hairlines caused by PCGS dipping them?

[PerryHall]

This is easy to do at shows since the lighting is most of time florescent or mercury vapor.

 

Hairlines are easiest to see under an incandescent light which is the most common table lamp type at coin shows.

[Conder101]

I picked a circulated coin knowing die polish would not remain on the devices of a circulated coin.

 

Die polish is grinding marks are the result of polishing the dies to eliminate the defect marks when a die has been clashed or damaged.

Die polish lines typically are only seen on the fields, they are very rarely seen on the devices, even on MS coins. When they are seen they are on the lowest relief areas of the devices where they are unlikely to be removed by wear.

[grade it-migration]

Good point Conder I have seen thousands of coins with die polish on the devises they can be difficult to differentiate from hairlines. I always use a microscope for grading and go to 30X to determine the difference.

One observation is that hairlines will continue on the higher points of the devises. Die polish lines will most of the time stop at high points. ( not cast in stone)

 

James has coins with hairlines he might post photos with the results.

 

Imagine photographing a slab at 45 degrees to the camera though plastic.

 

My criteria for hairlines is a minimum of 25 in a long stretch not a simple small patch.

 

I believe 25 hairlines is over a few. Many have hundreds.

 

Show light does not deter from hairline identification with a incandescent light.

 

Grading the overall coin requires a dark room with only one incandescent light source to be done properly..

 

We all or most here want our new collectors to buy the coin not the holder.

 

Just a guide to what coin to buy

 

 

 

 

[cpm9ball]

I don't drink kool aid as many of the posters here do. Sorry for the incoherent posts I thought it might be an education for some including the tpg's....

 

Your post on hairline identification would be helpful if I got anything wrong...

 

When I first opened this thread, I told myself that I wasn't going to say anything. I was going to be a good little boy and keep my mouth shut. Alas, I can't do it!

 

Where do you "come off" insulting everybody, including the grading staff of NGC? You've been registered for 2 weeks and you think you know all there is to know about everyone on these forums. The majority of the fine people here have more knowledge about numismatics in their pinky fingers than you probably have in your whole body. Why don't you find a home for the elderly and go count hairlines there?

 

Chris

[grade it-migration]

"At this point, I feel I should interject something of little importance in the midst of this very educational Q&A." could not of said it better myself..Chirs

 

 

Never Mentioned NGC are you feeling nervous

 

This was posted for new collectors. Who need to learn grading skills

 

Everyone who reads these threads is not an expert grader.

 

I went back 20 years of posts here and not one post on hairlines identification was found.

 

Hairlines are the first thing a new grader should know about, and the last thing a sleazy dealer will point out......... anyone disagree with that statement??

 

[MarkFeld]

"At this point, I feel I should interject something of little importance in the midst of this very educational Q&A." could not of said it better myself..Chirs

 

 

Never Mentioned NGC are you feeling nervous

 

This was posted for new collectors. Who need to learn grading skills

 

Everyone who reads these threads is not an expert grader.

 

I went back 20 years of posts here and not one post on hairlines identification was found.

 

Hairlines are the first thing a new grader should know about, and the last thing a sleazy dealer will point out......... anyone disagree with that statement??

 

Yes, I disagree with that statement. I would be much more concerned about whether a coin were genuine or not, than I would with detecting hairlines. Do you care to disagree with that?

[grade it-migration]

Good point . Thanks for pointing that out.. Then hairlines??

[cpm9ball]

"At this point, I feel I should interject something of little importance in the midst of this very educational Q&A." could not of said it better myself..Chirs

 

 

Never Mentioned NGC are you feeling nervous

 

This was posted for new collectors. Who need to learn grading skills

 

Everyone who reads these threads is not an expert grader.

 

I went back 20 years of posts here and not one post on hairlines identification was found.

 

Hairlines are the first thing a new grader should know about, and the last thing a sleazy dealer will point out......... anyone disagree with that statement??

 

 

Paul was right! You're about three quarts short of a gallon.

 

Chris

[grade it-migration]

reported

 

[*]Racist or "hate crime" type comments [*]Inappropriate references (analogies, etc.) to significantly emotional topics such as Nazis, slavery, etc.. If you have to wonder whether someone with a personal involvement in the topic would find your comment strongly offensive, you probably shouldn't make it. [*]Threads started explicitly to bash other members [*]Pork Barreling - placing small inappropriate statements within longer posts whose content is mainly legitimate. These post will get pulled and you will lose the positive with the negative.

[jesbroken]

He ALT to know. I wonder who?

Jim

[comicdonna]

So, what are hairlines?

[MarkFeld]

Good point . Thanks for pointing that out.. Then hairlines??

Not necessarily. I look for signs of cleaning, artificial color, other forms of doctoring, hints of circualtion on a coin that looks as if it might be uncirculated, spots, PVC, all sorts of things.

 

For whatever reason, you sound as if you have tunnel vision regarding hairlines. Often, they are far more minor/less important than other types of flaws.

[grade it-migration]

Donna

 

Definition: Hairlines are thin, incuse (sunken in), tiny little scratches on the surface or devices of a coin, usually caused by slider marks or cleaning. They are readily visible under 10x magnification and good light, and detract from the value of high-grade coins.

 

Be careful that you distinguish hairlines from abrasion or die polishing marks, which appear as tiny little raised scratches on the surface of the coin. Abrasion marks are caused by polishing the coin dies at the mint, and do not detract from the value or grade as severely as true hairlines do.

[MarkFeld]

Donna

 

Definition: Hairlines are thin, incuse (sunken in), tiny little scratches on the surface or devices of a coin, usually caused by slider marks or cleaning. They are readily visible under 10x magnification and good light, and detract from the value of high-grade coins.

 

Be careful that you distinguish hairlines from abrasion or die polishing marks, which appear as tiny little raised scratches on the surface of the coin. Abrasion marks are caused by polishing the coin dies at the mint, and do not detract from the value or grade as severely as true hairlines do.

Abrasions, and thus "abrasion marks", whatever those are, are different from mint-made die polish lines. Accordingly, the two terms should not be used synonymously. And rarely, do die polish lines detract from the grade or value of a coin.

[comicdonna]

It would be great if images were posted to distinguish between polishing at the mint vs cleaned.

[bsshog40]

Here is a link about Die Polish Lines and another link about whizzing which causes cleaning hairlines.

[MarkFeld]

Here is a link about Die Polish Lines and another link about whizzing which causes cleaning hairlines.

Whizzimg is very different from cleaning. It doesn't cause "cleaning hairlines".

[bsshog40]

Here is a link about Die Polish Lines and another link about whizzing which causes cleaning hairlines.

Whizzimg is very different from cleaning. It doesn't cause "cleaning hairlines".

Quote from VamWorld "Whizzing is a special form of cleaning in which a brush made of wire or a similar substance is applied to the coin to enhance luster". Wouldn't a brush cause hairlines Mark? Unless whoever wrote this didn't know what they were talking about.

[MarkFeld]

Here is a link about Die Polish Lines and another link about whizzing which causes cleaning hairlines.

Whizzimg is very different from cleaning. It doesn't cause "cleaning hairlines".

Quote from VamWorld "Whizzing is a special form of cleaning in which a brush made of wire or a similar substance is applied to the coin to enhance luster". Wouldn't a brush cause hairlines Mark? Unless whoever wrote this didn't know what they were talking about.

Bobby, whizzing, which uses a wire brush at high speed, results in movement of metal and a much different appearance than normal hairlines. I think it can cause confusion to equate the results of wire brush whizzing with typical, non-whizzing hairlines.

[bsshog40]

Here is a link about Die Polish Lines and another link about whizzing which causes cleaning hairlines.

Whizzimg is very different from cleaning. It doesn't cause "cleaning hairlines".

Quote from VamWorld "Whizzing is a special form of cleaning in which a brush made of wire or a similar substance is applied to the coin to enhance luster". Wouldn't a brush cause hairlines Mark? Unless whoever wrote this didn't know what they were talking about.

Bobby, whizzing, which uses a wire brush at high speed, results in movement of metal and a much different appearance than normal hairlines. I think it can cause confusion to equate the results of wire brush whizzing with typical, non-whizzing hairlines.

Thank you for the interpretation Mark! (thumbs u

[WoodenJefferson]

It would be great if images were posted to distinguish between polishing at the mint vs cleaned.

 

James Garcia has some coin in-hand that "grade-it" sent to him, we are hoping James can start a thread about this matter...stand-by, the Steelers are beating the Ravens.

[JStull]

So, what are hairlines?

 

Something that's receding on me with age.

 

 

Almost like his ^