What do think of "CAC"?

[dan3e]

Hello,

I have been reading several articles about "CAC" stickers/grading. I would like to know what other collector's think of this service and if it is worth sending in your coins for this service. Thanks, Dan

[gmarguli]

It's a useless service designed to make money off insecure people.

 

[MarkFeld]

I am not a collector, but here's my opinion....

 

I look at CAC as a good, low cost way to get a second expert opinion.

 

Some coins can benefit from CAC, while others don't. A CAC sticker can make some coins more liquid and subject to strong bids. In many cases it can put an NGC coin on par with a PCGS coin, value-wise, when such would not necessarily be the case without a CAC sticker.

[Mark T]

I agree with Mark and disagree with Gmarguli.

With all the sight unseen buying these days a CAC sticker is a piece of insurance that you will get a properly graded coin. Not every CAC coin will fulfill the requirements of different individual collectors as we all have individual tastes. My personal experience with CAC has been excellent, I have yet to be unsatisfied with any CAC coin I purchased.

 

[michael]

I look at CAC as a good, low cost way to get a second expert opinion.

 

Some coins can benefit from CAC, while others don't. A CAC sticker can make some coins more liquid and subject to strong bids. In many cases it can put an NGC coin on par with a PCGS coin, value-wise, when such would not necessarily be the case without a CAC sticker.

 

100% agree and sums things up well

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i have seen firsthand many collectors get coins back from cac NON CAC STICKERED that had major problems ie. things added to them and/or coins that had problems that shoujld have never been holdered and this cac process made them aware of this so they can deside what to do next

 

 

 

 

 

[Old Pueblo]

Green Beans are good for me

[JIM F.]

I'm not impressed by CAC.

[MarkFeld]

I'm not impressed by CAC.

Have you used their service?

[DC Dawg]

Buy the coin, not the holder or sticker.

[JIM F.]

I'm not impressed by CAC.

Have you used their service?

 

No...but the coins I have purchased that have the sticker on it, are not impressive in my opinion.

 

[djdilliodon]

In a series im experienced in i don't need a second opinion as i know what i already have no matter what the holder says imo, but a series im not familiar with i can see the benefit in getting the second opinion. Especially when alot of money is involved!

[bochiman]

I'm not impressed by CAC.

Have you used their service?

 

No...but the coins I have purchased that have the sticker on it, are not impressive in my opinion.

 

Are they problematic, in your opinion?

 

My understanding isn't so much as to say that CAC makes a coin impressive, but that it means a coin is accurately graded (green), or maybe undergraded (gold).

Is that not your understanding?

 

That said, I won't go out of my way to buy a CAC coin (I have a few), but I won't try to avoid it either. I will pay what I would pay anyway.

I have sent 1 coin to be evaluated for CAC, so that I could better understand the process myself. Toned copper. They didn't like it, but I love the coin. I don't think they like toned copper. I'm ok with that. Not enough to harsh on them for.

[mommam17]

I remember the first Coinfest Show when CAC started and we submitted some coins. I didn't know much about CAC or John Albanese, and if it was going to catch on with collectors. By the time the second Coinfest Show came around, I saw the collectors lined up to submit and knew CAC would make it. Because I don't get to many shows, internet buying is important to me. Because you really can't tell what a coin looks like, unless in hand, John Albanese's opinion on a coin is VERY important to me and I pay attention to CAC coins. Also, because of CAC, I found some coins in my collection that had PVC contamination and 1 coin was AT. Some people do not like CAC, you can't please everyone, but it's been a big help for me in building my collection.

[kryptonitecomics]

I have no opinion pro or con...I haven't used the service and on the coins I have seen sticked I agreed with the grade on the holder so the sticker did nothing for me personally.

 

As a Ebay seller I do see that coins with the sticker sell for more that the coins without but I don't know how much more they sell for vs the cost of the stickering. I would imagine on pricey coins it could be easily cost justified....on a common date Morgan in MS63.....probably a losing proposition which ties in with what mark said....makes sense for some and not for others.

[MarkFeld]

I have no opinion pro or con...I haven't used the service and on the coins I have seen sticked I agreed with the grade on the holder so the sticker did nothing for me personally.

 

As a Ebay seller I do see that coins with the sticker sell for more that the coins without but I don't know how much more they sell for vs the cost of the stickering. I would imagine on pricey coins it could be easily cost justified....on a common date Morgan in MS63.....probably a losing proposition which ties in with what mark said....makes sense for some and not for others.

Shane, I believe that the current cost for CAC submissions is $10 for coins insured at under $10,000 and $20 for coins insured at $10,000 or more. And COLLECTORS get their submission fees back if their coins don't sticker. I'd say the cost can be pretty easily justified in most cases, wouldn't you?

[kryptonitecomics]

I have no opinion pro or con...I haven't used the service and on the coins I have seen sticked I agreed with the grade on the holder so the sticker did nothing for me personally.

 

As a Ebay seller I do see that coins with the sticker sell for more that the coins without but I don't know how much more they sell for vs the cost of the stickering. I would imagine on pricey coins it could be easily cost justified....on a common date Morgan in MS63.....probably a losing proposition which ties in with what mark said....makes sense for some and not for others.

Shane, I believe that the current cost for CAC submissions is $10 for coins insured at under $10,000 and $20 for coins insured at $10,000 or more. And COLLECTORS get their submission fees back if their coins don't sticker. I'd say the cost can be pretty easily justified in most cases, wouldn't you?

 

Well if I spend $10 + shipping both ways and it increase the value of a common date morgan by $10 then no probably not. Hoping that folks would use common sense and send in a coin with a bit more value....say a $200 coin then I would think it quite reasonable that the CAC costs could be account for in the increased selling price. As a collector or an owner not looking to sell the coins....I don't know if I personally could justify the costs of having another expert opinion on an already graded coin however I am sure plenty of collectors would be and are more than willing to spend the $10 or $20 for the piece of mind the 2nd opinion affords them. I have always said I don't feel CAC is a service I personally would use but I see nothing wrong with other collectors having the option if it's out there and I have nothing negative to say against CAC (thumbs u

[TomB]

Unlike some folks who have taken the time to respond to this thread, I have had experience with CAC and think they can be a useful service.

 

I view CAC as an optional tool that is available to collectors and dealers. It is a tool that has some similarities to other tools available within the hobby-industry, yet has some individual characteristics that other tools lack. To begin with, I will list some other tools available to those who will take the time and expend the effort. These other tools are the ability to use the highly regarded TPG services (PCGS and NGC); learning how to grade raw and certified coins along the ANA grading guidelines; acquiring the knowledge necessary to avoid many or most counterfeit coinage; obtaining the information and experience that will allow one to identify and avoid most or many of the coins within the marketplace that have had unacceptable surface manipulations performed on them; understanding what might be considered positive eye appeal; becoming proficient in the use of a loupe; and knowing the market well enough to understand what might be fair value for a particular coin. There are no doubt many other tools available to the collector and/or dealer, but these were the first that came to mind for me.

 

Sadly, most collectors and even many dealers will not invest the time and energy required to master the above listed tools and will instead look to flip material quickly without the need to understand it or will incorporate relatively poor choices into their collection. Remember, it is easier to be involved in most hobbies without truly understanding most niche areas of the hobby.

 

My opinion of CAC is that it is a net positive in the hobby-industry. For a relatively small sum of money there is an option available for any collector or dealer to receive well informed second opinions on the grade of a coin as well as the surface of a coin. These opinions can then be shared with others in the form of the green or gold sticker issued by CAC or they can be hidden by removing the sticker or not revealing that a particular coin was rejected by CAC after evaluation. Truly, the CAC opinion will have been given by one or more numismatists who have substantially more knowledge of most areas within the market than the vast majority of collectors or dealers, even among the pool who do not believe they need the help.

 

Should a CAC sticker be required for purchase of a coin? Not in my opinion. Is it nice to have a sticker on a coin already? I see little downside to this aspect unless the owner believes the coin should be sold for more because of the sticker. For full disclosure and so that anyone might take free pot shots at me if they wish, I have become a CAC authorized submission dealer and my contact information is listed on the CAC site.

[Mark T]

Tom you could not have explained it better. I was going to make a follow up post to my original one but after reading yours I decided to delete it.

[gmarguli]

Also, because of CAC, I found some coins in my collection that had PVC contamination and 1 coin was AT. Some people do not like CAC, you can't please everyone, but it's been a big help for me in building my collection.

 

1) Couldn't you have found that PVC by looking at the coin itself?

 

2) Who says the coin was AT? Post a toned coin on the forums and 50% say NT and 50% say AT. Who is correct?

[mommam17]

No, I did not see the PVC on the coin and neither did PCGS when they slabbed the coin. I think Oreville had 9 coins with PVC that he did not see. Not as easy as you suggest. John Albanese said the coin was AT and he had it in his hand. I'll go with his opinion.

[Mark T]

Also, because of CAC, I found some coins in my collection that had PVC contamination and 1 coin was AT. Some people do not like CAC, you can't please everyone, but it's been a big help for me in building my collection.

 

1) Couldn't you have found that PVC by looking at the coin itself?

 

2) Who says the coin was AT? Post a toned coin on the forums and 50% say NT and 50% say AT. Who is correct?

 

Greg if everyone was as smart as you we would not need CAC or grading services because we would all just agree with each other.

Why all the negativity towards CAC ?

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I'm not impressed by CAC.

Have you used their service?

I haven't, but am also not impressed, certainly not as a coin collector. Investors might be enjoying the blazes out of stickers for all I know, though.

 

Indeed, I have been quite disappointed by too many of the coins I see with CAC stickers. Thus, to the OP's direct question, the service is of no value to me, if the goal is to denote "premium quality". If others find the service useful, then I fully respect that opinion, but I think a much better strategy is to formulate a good working relationship with an astute dealer (like Mark Feld, for example), and learn how to evaluate coins from him.

 

I have so far referred four stickered coins that were clearly "mistakes" to CAC, and none has ever been taken care of. A fifth that I've recently handled is also a problem coin (doctored copper), but I've decided that it isn't worth bothering to refer such pieces anymore, given past experience.

 

Mark, if you want to refer this thread to John Albanese, that's fine, and if he contacts me, then I'll discuss the problem copper with him. My number is 3l4-574-l785 or of course he has my eMail (preferred).

 

In short, a service touted as the greatest thing since, well, doctored coins, falls short of expectations, in my experience.

[Mark T]

James can you post a picture of that doctored copper ??

 

I have found CAC to be very strict when it comes to copper, especially with RD coins .

 

[gmarguli]

No, I did not see the PVC on the coin and neither did PCGS when they slabbed the coin. I think Oreville had 9 coins with PVC that he did not see. Not as easy as you suggest. John Albanese said the coin was AT and he had it in his hand. I'll go with his opinion.

 

The PVC may not have shown when slabbed.It also may not have been PVC, just PVC like toning.

 

The graders also saw the coin in hand and they didn't think AT. You'll go with his opinion over the 3 graders and your original opinion. Interesting...

[MarkFeld]

I'm not impressed by CAC.

Have you used their service?

I haven't, but am also not impressed, certainly not as a coin collector. Investors might be enjoying the blazes out of stickers for all I know, though.

 

Indeed, I have been quite disappointed by too many of the coins I see with CAC stickers. Thus, to the OP's direct question, the service is of no value to me, if the goal is to denote "premium quality". If others find the service useful, then I fully respect that opinion, but I think a much better strategy is to formulate a good working relationship with an astute dealer (like Mark Feld, for example), and learn how to evaluate coins from him.

 

I have so far referred four stickered coins that were clearly "mistakes" to CAC, and none has ever been taken care of. A fifth that I've recently handled is also a problem coin (doctored copper), but I've decided that it isn't worth bothering to refer such pieces anymore, given past experience.

 

Mark, if you want to refer this thread to John Albanese, that's fine, and if he contacts me, then I'll discuss the problem copper with him. My number is 3l4-574-l785 or of course he has my eMail (preferred).

 

In short, a service touted as the greatest thing since, well, doctored coins, falls short of expectations, in my experience.

James, I sincerely appreciate the endorsement. It's somewhat ironic, though. That's because, through submitting to CAC, I have been made aware of problems I had missed on coins. It was things such as a spot removal, putty, AT, etc.

 

Simply put, I believe that John Albanese is one of the sharpest graders there is. And he sees and/or catches things that many others don't. I am not the least bit embarrassed to state that he is a much more knowledgeable and better grader than I am.

 

If other collectors and dealers are so good that they don't want another (low cost) expert opinion of that caliber, that's their decision. I believe that many of them aren't nearly as expert as they think they are, however. And I see that frequently at coin shows.

 

And the above doesn't even take into consideration the possible extra liquidity and/or better sale price for some CAC coins.

[gmarguli]

Also, because of CAC, I found some coins in my collection that had PVC contamination and 1 coin was AT. Some people do not like CAC, you can't please everyone, but it's been a big help for me in building my collection.

 

1) Couldn't you have found that PVC by looking at the coin itself?

 

2) Who says the coin was AT? Post a toned coin on the forums and 50% say NT and 50% say AT. Who is correct?

 

Greg if everyone was as smart as you we would not need CAC or grading services because we would all just agree with each other.

Why all the negativity towards CAC ?

 

I believe CAC is not necessary. The services are making the collectors dumber. There is no need to know how to grade a coin as the TPG will do it for you. There is no need to double check this grade as CAC will do it for you. There is no need to decide what coins to collect in your set as the Registry will do it for you. There is no need to think as others will do it for you. Coin collecting used to be the hobby of kings. Now it is the hobby of children who need someone to hold their hand.

 

And I wouldn't interpret my questioning if CAC called the AT correctly as negativity. I would no more assume that CAC got it right, than I would that the TPG got it right. I'd rather look at it myself and make that decision.

[johnny9434]

buy the coin not the slab/sticker

[James_OldeTowne]

James can you post a picture of that doctored copper ??

 

I have found CAC to be very strict when it comes to copper, especially with RD coins .

I would love to, but it is not my coin!

 

You might have small-cents in mind, whereas the coin I am referring to is 18th century (RD is extremely rare), and in a lengthy telephone conversation with John Albanese, he admitted that early copper gives them (CAC) considerable difficulty. In the case of the one I've referred to, the surfaces have been rather heavily tooled to remove corrosion, and the whole coin carefully brushed and recolored. It's designated "BN".

 

The scratches that occurred as a result of tooling are widespread across both sides under magnification.

 

On the other hand, I guess I should admit that maybe such "enhanced" coins are acceptable under CAC guidelines. After all, anyone familiar with early copper knows that a staggering percent have been "worked on", and if only pristine, truly original pieces were permitted to be "grade acceptable", practically none would be certified at all!

[MarkFeld]

No, I did not see the PVC on the coin and neither did PCGS when they slabbed the coin. I think Oreville had 9 coins with PVC that he did not see. Not as easy as you suggest. John Albanese said the coin was AT and he had it in his hand. I'll go with his opinion.

 

The PVC may not have shown when slabbed.It also may not have been PVC, just PVC like toning.

 

The graders also saw the coin in hand and they didn't think AT. You'll go with his opinion over the 3 graders and your original opinion. Interesting...

A CAC opinion is that of John Albanese, as well as two other extremely competent graders.

 

CAC evaluates far fewer coins and probably spends more time examining them. They also have the advantage of screening coins that have already been evaluated by NGC or PCGS, just as those companies do when they consider crossovers.

 

buy the coin not the slab/sticker

No one has said otherwise. But sometimes each of us can learn more about the COIN from others.

[James_OldeTowne]

James, I sincerely appreciate the endorsement. It's somewhat ironic, though. That's because, through submitting to CAC, I have been made aware of problems I had missed on coins. It was things such as a spot removal, putty, AT, etc.

 

Simply put, I believe that John Albanese is one of the sharpest graders there is. And he sees and/or catches things that many others don't. I am not the least bit embarrassed to state that he is a much more knowledgeable and better grader than I am.

And Mark, my endorsement of you as a dealer is most sincerely felt as well!

 

I endorse you because I believe in my heart that you are much more than a "grade flipper". Sure, CAC may or may not help you and others figure out a problem coin here and there, but isn't there a whole heck of a lot more to the hobby than quibbling over what's really only a small part of said hobby? And I think you are someone who, like many collectors, enjoys a coin for what it is regardless of how or what it is graded.

 

Sadly, I think "GRADE GRADE GRADE, WHAT IS THE GRADE??" has become much, much too important to people who could enjoy their coins so much more if they could focus on historical aspects of them half as much. John Albanese may or may not be a better grader than you, a better grader than me, and a better grader than the Lord of the Rings, but do I care? Not really. I bet I can attribute Cohen half-cent varieties in circles around him ! And I bet that learning the difference between an original 1841 proof half-cent and the restrikes teaches FAR more enjoyment than worrying about the difference between MS-65.2 and MS-65.4.

 

So in short, we don't see CAC in the same light, but that's OK with me, because we do (I believe) see the ultimate goal of enjoying coins in a very similar light .

 

Edited to add:

buy the coin not the slab/sticker

No one has said otherwise. But sometimes each of us can learn more about the COIN from others.

Here's just what I mean. Slabs and stickers actually teach very little about the COIN, but teach about the GRADE.