You're a dealer, you see this coin in a public auction, you want it but.....

[MarkFeld]

.. sadly, you realize it's nearly a foregone conclusion you wont be able to buy it.

 

In this particular case, we're talking about an 1837 No Stars dime graded MS62 by NGC. It has some "rub" or "friction" on the high points, which accounts for a grade lower than it would otherwise receive and lower than it might look, based upon the images.

 

As a dealer, I must be concerned with re-sale levels and at a certain point, no matter how nice/attractive a given coin is, I can only justify an asking price, so much over published prices.

 

This is some of the pricing information that I use to consider and arrive at my bid:

 

The Certified CDN price is $900 in MS62 grade and $1160 in MS63 for type.

 

CDN is $775 in MS60 and $1500 in MS63 for this, the Small Date variety, as compared to $1375 for the Large Date.

 

So, what do you folks think of this coin? If you were a dealer, what would you be willing to pay for it and how did you arrive at your number?

 

Link to auction listing

 

 

[truthteller]

This is my strategy:

 

If I were a collector who specializes in this series, I would be hesitant to bid on this coin at any level since I would be suspicious of the color and grade.

 

If I were a dealer buying for a collector who was new to the hobby and wanted color only, I would bid $1500.

 

If I were a new collector who had tons of cash and didn't care if the color is real, I would bid $2000.

 

If I were a dealer buying for stock $1000

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

[mdwoods]

That coin is certainly going to command a substantial premium just because of the eye appeal. I could see it retailing for 2k or more based on your numbers. It's hard to say what it will bring in auction.

[Hoot]

What truth said is how I'd also approach this, except that I NEVER bid excessively high, only to the max that I could live with in good conscience. Thus, for the coin in question, I'd bid no more that $1500 either buying for myself or another collector whose wish list I maintained.

 

Hoot

[spy88]

Mark, without any previous knowledge as to whether or not the starting price is ALREADY too high for the grade, I must say it is a very attractive coin! This in itself may be enough of a incentive to make a higher then normal bid for it. Knowing you do not want the coin to sit in a case for weeks/months and are interested in a profit on re-sale, I would say that a bid of $950. might be as high as I would go. If you already have a customer that you know is interested in this series, or is on a want list from somebody, this bid may go higher depending on their need/want for this coin.

 

As price lists are only as accurate as the market makes them, I would be more interested in how much similar date/grade dimes have sold for with any major auction house and/or eBay. This would influence my bidding more then any published "value" for it.

[1946hamm-migration]

There is no mention of the clashed reverse. Makes one wonder what else is not mentioned. I also don't like the color. Just don't look right to me. It might look totally different in person. I would have to see this coin in hand before I would even bid on it.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Gary

[chinook]

That coin certainly is pretty. But it is in to low a grade for me to pay a substantial premium. I love toned coins but I would feel better buying a white coin in 63 for less.

 

Everyone always says to go for eye appeal, but all too often an average coin in 63 will command a larger price than an eye appealing 60-62 grade especially when it comes time to sell to my local dealer.

 

My preference would be eye appeal with a high technical grade.

[roadrunner-migration]

As a 30 year specialist on seated material I cannot with any conscience pay MS62 money for an AU-55 to 58 coin. That monstrous rub on the leg didn't get there from being mint state. Eye appeal not withstanding, it's an AU coin and worth in the AU58-MS62 range. I prefer to get the real deal, no rub and nice color, for not much more premium than this pretender will fetch. I would be very surprised if this coin has more than 75% luster remaining. I could not afford to buy the coin as a dealer or collector as to me it's worth around $800-$1000. If you want the prettiest AU out there, in a MS holder, then this is your coin.

 

Reminds me of the 1839-0 NGC64 dime from the Andre Dawson collection that has been making the auction rounds the past year. That coin has great color but a similar rub and significant luster breaks. The Eliasberg 1861-s half in PCGS MS64 also has a similar rub issue. Personally I would not want them for myself nor for anyone I was helping to build a collection for. Go for the full monty, it is out there.

 

roadrunner

[gmarguli]

Personally, I don't see any wear on the coin. Looks unc to me.

 

I like the toning, but it doesn't blow me away. The best of the toning is on the reverse instead of the obverse (a negative pricing factor).

 

The pricing guides aren't much of a help. As for being a dealer and buying it, that would depend on your client list. Is a toned coin going to sit in inventory for a long time because your buyers only want white? To buy this coin I'd guess you are going to have to pay double bid for this grade or around a 50% premium over the next grade - somewhere in the $1,800 to $2,200 range.

 

 

[TomB]

Generally, I think that many people who buy coins of this era view the MS62 grade with some suspicion. You know, is it really AU58 or is it MS62? Aside from that, the reverse looks to be the money side of this coin and that can be a tough factor when selling a piece.

 

I look at it this way, assuming you have no ready client for the coin; what's the balance of the time you are willing to keep the money tied up in the coin vs the profit you need to make on it?

 

If you need to move inventory fast, then this is a coin you should avoid. If, however, you can afford to sit on a coin until the right buyer comes along, then you can go after this piece.

 

I don't know what it's going to go for, but I think strongly that most could sell that coin, with little effort, for more than Greysheet MS63 money.

[Tradedollarnut]

Coin will probably sell for $4k+ to an internet bidder who doesn't care that it's got rub and just likes the colors.

 

Seems to me that the new fad in coin collecting is to buy coins that image well. Why not - after all, they're gonna sit in a vault somewhere and rarely get visited... isn't the image in some ways more important?

 

Which would you rather own - a dull technical MS65 or a beautiful net graded gem with a touch of rub? There's enough people that will take the latter to propel this coin to MS64 money.

 

But Mark's right - it'd take some serious stones for a dealer to be that someone!

[Trime-migration]

Mark,

This is one of the most interesting posts in a long time. Turned out to be a difficult question (to me)

First I like the coin and agree that technically it is an AU58 but the eye appeal has upgraded the Coin and the rub called "cabinet friction" in the grading room. A coin this pretty graded MS62 without a fields of battle usually fall into this category. This approach drives the purists (ie Roadrunner) and the copperheads crazy. Frankly doesn't make much sense but this is market grading.

I guessed it might sell at auction for $1500. I came to this conclusion based on the ratio of CDN grey to CDN blue for the MS63 X CDN blue in MS 62 X 30% premium for eye appeal. As a dealer, you then need to subtract your acceptable profit margin. I might guess a dealer could bid $1150 for inventory. This could be an underbid as the 1837 LSD is a type set coin and this coin would not embarrass many collections. I was struck by TDN opinion on the saleability and possible sale price of $4000. I am not sure if this was tongue in cheek ( probably so, but in the coin world who knows). If serious, then some astute dealer could pay considerably more and make out well. I do not buy MS 62 coins unless unique or really inexpensive as they are problem coins one way or another.

 

 

 

[jom]

isn't the image in some ways more important?

 

Hey, I know, let's start collecting "double die" and other "error" images! Like my "exceedingly rare" 36-D double feather image:

 

Goes for a premium!

 

 

Not sure about this Seated Lib. I see, what I think, is rub on that bottom (liberty's right) leg. It's seems it's the same old story: was it market graded to 62 from AU58 OR is it really MS?

 

Generally, I think that many people who buy coins of this era view the MS62 grade with some suspicion

 

This era? Hell, I have trouble trusting Buffalo nickels in 62 holders. heh

 

jom

[Tradedollarnut]

Not tongue in cheek at all. Make fun of it if you like, but to some people how a coin looks is more important to them than the possibility they will lose $3,000 if they ever sell it.

 

Perhaps it is they who are making fun of you because you are more worried about a touch of rub that can barely be seen without a glass than the overall eye appeal?

[jom]

Perhaps it is they who are making fun of you because you are more worried about a touch of rub that can barely be seen without a glass than the overall eye appeal?

 

Those bastards! How DARE they?

 

jom

[Trime-migration]

ttt

[MarkFeld]

Thanks for your comments, a number of which I found to be quite interesting.

 

I think the coin is indeed mint-state and VERY pretty on BOTH sides. My thinking (right or wrong) is that I am willing to buy it at a level where I pay a premium for it, but that I still need to be able to offer it for approximately what an MS63 would go for. There is nothing scientific about this approach, but, I feel many buyers would be ok paying MS63 money for an MSS62 coin that looks like that. Once we get to asking MS64 money for an MS62, however, in most cases, the odds of a sale are reduced dramatically. Part of the consideration is the dollars involved, too. In other words if there were only a $50 spread between an MS62 and an MS64, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Bottom line - I'm planning to bid in the $1200 range and I predict I will NOT win it.

 

As you no doubt, all know, there is a very broad spectrum of prices that collectors will pay for coins, based upon things such as eye-appeal and color, as opposed to the numerical grade assigned, technical qualities, etc. The question then becomes how MUCH extra to pay. As a dealer, I operate under different constraints than a collector would. Some collector might see this coin, fall in love, decide he must own it and pay what it takes to win it (irrespective of the assigned grade and the published prices), along the lines that TDN mentioned. It will be fun, for me, at least, to see what happens in this instance

 

Edited to add: There is also the potential "crack-out/upgrade" factor - if I, who am admittedly on the fussy side, think it's a really pretty, properly graded MS62, someone else might think it's a 63 or a 64 and bid accordingly.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Seems to me that the new fad in coin collecting is to buy coins that image well. Why not - after all, they're gonna sit in a vault somewhere and rarely get visited... isn't the image in some ways more important?

 

TDN,

 

I must agree with your point. I personally overweight eye appeal over technical grade in many purchasing decisions. It helps a lot when the nicer looking coin is the lower grade coin (read: rationalization).

 

Like many, all of my coins are at the bank, and I have images on the computer to review when I like. Some of these images are professional photos taken by experienced photographers, and others are crummy scans taken by me, and many are somewhere in between. Whenever I go to the box, I pull out the collection (about 30 coins) and look at them all. I am always surprised both pleasantly and not-so-pleasantly by the coins' appearances in person (in a dimly lit room, I may add). There is an occasional, "WOW! This coin is much cooler than I remember." and a less frequent, "Ugh! Why do I own that?" When I hit the second remark for the same coin on multiple consecutive visits, it is time for the coin and me to part company.

 

Great thread!

[Trime-migration]

Mark,

All seem to agree that this coin is a very pretty coin . I presume you think that this coin was limited to a MS62 because of the "cabinet friction". I believe you taught me that technically AU but very attractive coins are frequently (up)graded at NGC and PCGS to MS62. While this coin may fetch MS63 + price, I do not see how the coin will crack out and be regraded at this level. That is too long a slide! Do you agree ?

 

[MarkFeld]

I presume you think that this coin was limited to a MS62 because of the "cabinet friction".

Trime, I think that's why it received the MS62 grade. However, from experience, if I like it as a 62, there is probably someone else out there that likes it as a 63.

[Coinosaurus]

Very interesting thread. As a collector I have the luxury of not worrying about resale (at least not as much as a dealer). Secondly, eye appeal has been playing an increasingly larger part in my buying decisions the last year or so. I don't know if the whole market is going that way or not but I sure as heck am. I just don't want to own coins anymore that aren't really attractive unless they are incredibly rare and another buying opportunity won't come along for a few years. So, count me as one of the folks who might pay "stupid money" for such a coin were I a seated dime specialist.

[jtryka]

I think another interesting aspect to Mark Feld's dilemma is the time horizon involved. Let's face it, as collectors we have an exceedingly long time horizon, so if it's a coin we really want, we can bid very aggressively and then not worry about recouping our purchase price for years, decades, or sometimes not even in our lifetime. For a dealer, even if the coin is superb, it's still inventory, tying up working capital. To tie up that working capital for a few days, weeks or even months might be acceptable, but rarely do dealer want to buy a coin to hold on to for a year or more. The result, for exceptional coins, the collectors have an advantage in this one area, and the only real way for a dealer to overcome that advantage is by knowing their customer base so well that they can bid aggressively as a proxy for their customers, and then flip the coin immediately for a small profit. There are very few dealers with that depth of customer base, much less the strong relationships required to make that transaction feasible.

[Trime-migration]

jtryka,

Perhaps but many buyers do not want to belly up to the bar and pay whatever price is written on the mirror. Collectors are entitled to a fair and competitive price on goods purchased. Understanding that principal is essential for survival of a dealer and also helpful in the purchase of any product.

[roadrunner-migration]

Bid difference between "cabinet friction" and major plateauing of a key feature.

I consider LIberty's leg sacred in all the seated denominations. A little bit of friction at the peakof the knee is one thing, but not something the full width of her thigh and the whole length of it. One can see this rub from 6" away without a glass. That's not mint state regardless of what "market' grading calls it. Send this coin in to PCGS a few times, I guarantee you it will go AU on at least one submission.

 

The beauty of this coin is that most buyers cannot tell the difference between it and a truly honest unc. So as TDN alludes to, it goes into the safe deposit box not to be seen again until it gets sold...or for monthly visits. Even if a dealer takes a shot on this coin, there will be an ultimate retail client who cannot differentiate an AU from a MS64 and he will gladly pay full retail for such a coin...because it is pretty. To each his own. If not for the uninformed, all the dealers out there could not possibly exist in this market.

 

If this coin has 100 % full luster with the exception of the leg then maybe you have a coin worth mint state money. But I would be willing to be bet the coin is hurting for luster in many other areas and has rub on other high points as well. Doesn't matter if it got if from a cabinet tray or from circulation. I'll bet this one circulated.

 

roadrunner

 

 

 

 

[roadrunner-migration]

Wear also seems to appear all over the top edges of the leaves on the reverse as well. Liberty's breast and her right arm look to have the same rubbing. The obverse rim from 7:00 to 11:00 is indicative of having seen some abuse. If a mint state coin this would have luster on it too and not appear colorless and choppy.

The coin did circulate for a period of time. It does have great color. And is one heck of an AU.

 

roadrunner

[gmarguli]

Send this coin in to PCGS a few times, I guarantee you it will go AU on at least one submission.

 

And what would this prove? That PCGS isn't consistent. If you send it to PCGS 6 times it should come back AU or MS all 6 times. I bet if that coin were sent raw to PCGS 6 times it would bodybag at least once. I bet if it were sent in to cross it would cross maybe once and not 5 times. I bet with 10 submissions to PCGS you could get 3 different grades for this coin.

 

 

The coin did circulate for a period of time. It does have great color. And is one heck of an AU.

 

Can I buy some AU coins like this from you?

 

I look all over this coin and no where do I see wear. Ear, face, arm, hand, drapery, rock, knee, foot, thigh, cap, breast. On the reverse, stems, leaves, bow, letters. No where do I see any wear. It looks like an average struck (maybe a tad weak) Seated dime.

[Tradedollarnut]

You guys can argue all you want about the grade. No matter what's on the holder still don't change the fact it's a $4,000 coin.

[roadrunner-migration]

Greg,

 

That's why it's a good thing that you don't routinely buy MS seated material. If you've been buying and selling this stuff routinely you'd notice the obvious wear. Sorry that I cannot educate anyone on this point. The plateau on the leg has ZERO to do with strike and everything to do with wear. The other areas are more subtle but support the whole premise. When Coinguy1 views this at the auction he can give us all the details on how much luster the coin is missing and what areas of the coin have the "wrong" color on the high points. I wouldn't sell this for AU money as it is in a holder stating otherwise. In fact, most of the MS liberty seated material on the market up through MS 64 grades is quite rubbed. That's why fresh, unrubbed material out of old time collections brings so much money at auctions. Those are real coins at real prices.

 

TDN, if this coin brings $4000 I'll buy you lunch at the next show we meet at.

 

roadrunner

[Tradedollarnut]

Lunch? Darn... now I have to register as a floor bidder and internet bidder both!

 

$2100 plus the juice and counting!

[Tradedollarnut]

$3,680. Missed it by thaaaaaaat much....