This Just Boils My Blood!

[123cents]

At the last big Heritage Auction a Seated Dollar that I considered buying sold for $632.50 with the juice. I would have bought it but I had already spent too much and didn't need to bid on any more coins.

 

Today looking at a online dealers inventory I see the same Seated Dollar with a price tags of $980.00. Guys that's over a 50% markup.

 

I understand that a dealer has to make money but come on man! Over a 50% markup! I am so angry and mad I don't think I will ever bid or buy any coins from this dealer ever again. What do you think?

[physics-fan3.14]

I understand its a businessman's perogative to buy and price coins at his pleasure. Whether the coin sells or not is ancillary. Why does it make you mad? Its simple capitalist economics. If he can get 50%, good for him. If you wanted it for cheaper, bid on it. He won it in a perfectly fair competition, and its his freedom to do with it what he wants. I think you are being unfair, and you make my blood boil.

[MarkFeld]

I think you're overreacting, and badly. Do you know for a fact that thee current seller is the one who bought it out of the sale? If so, do you know what his maximum bid was? Maybe it was a lot higher than the coin sold for.

 

Finally, regardless of your answers to the above, if he has other coins that you are interested in and they are priced fairly, why not buy them?

[123cents]

I understand its a businessman's perogative to buy and price coins at his pleasure. Whether the coin sells or not is ancillary. Why does it make you mad? Its simple capitalist economics. If he can get 50%, good for him. If you wanted it for cheaper, bid on it. He won it in a perfectly fair competition, and its his freedom to do with it what he wants. I think you are being unfair, and you make my blood boil.

 

I make your blood boil. That's good to know. Thanks!

[gmarguli]

1) What the dealer paid for the coin has no bearing on what the fair market value of that coin is. Is the coin worth the $980 that he is asking? Perhaps it sold cheap in the auction? If it sold fair in the auction and the dealer is asking the moon for it, then it'll sit in inventory forever.

 

2) You may view it as a 55% markup, but the dealer very well may have incurred large costs in acquiring the coin. Did he buy it over the internet or did he buy a plane ticket to fly to the show, pay for a car rental, pay for a hotel room, pay for a table at the show, wine and dine clients while there, pay for a plane ticket back, all the while he had to pay someone else to man his shop (and pay for the shop) while he was gone. What is his actual profit?

 

3) Perhaps the dealer priced it at a level he knows is high because he knows that buyers will be asking for a discount?

 

4) As Mark mentioned, perhaps the coin has changed hands several times before he got it.

 

5) Perhaps you're just angry with yourself for not being able to get the coin and want to dealer bash because the coin is now that much farther out of reach?

 

Coins are a business and a seller can ask any price he wants. I wouldn't get upset with the prices he asks, I'd just move on if I felt it was too high.

[MBA101]

My take on all this would be: I screwed up by not buying at the lower price.

 

I have found that another at the lower price will show up sometime down the road. No bother to irritate myself with buying a coin I could have had cheap by buying said coin from a dealer with a markup.

 

I have seen this so many times my head spins faster than a...well...top. Move on.

[WinstonWare]

Just out of curiosity, do we have a date and grade on this coin? An image perhaps?

[123cents]

Just out of curiosity, do we have a date and grade on this coin? An image perhaps?

 

Yes, Winston I have all that but my thread was not about that. I am not mad because I didn't win the coin. It was not a high priority with me. It was not a rare date. I can pick one up anytime. I just get angry with coins going straight from Heritage to some dealers inventory at a ridiculous markup.

 

If this doesn't bother you and you think this fair, great! Certainly the dealers and anybody, in fact, can ask whatever they want for whatever they are selling. I just have seen too much of this lately and will pretty much stick with buying from the Coin forum boards, Ebay, and the major auction companies.

[physics-fan3.14]

I just have seen too much of this lately and will pretty much stick with buying from the Coin forum boards, Ebay, and the major auction companies.

 

And where do you think they get their coins? They buy them somewhere, mark them up, and try and sell them. I think you are being rather narrow-minded on this issue.

[IGWT]

123 - By your reasoning, if a collector were to find a 19551c doubled die in circulaton, he would not be able to sell it for more than a couple cents. In fact, a couple cents would be way too much, because that would be a 100% mark-up.

[123cents]

123 - By your reasoning, if a collector were to find a 19551c doubled die in circulaton, he would not be able to sell it for more than a couple cents. In fact, a couple cents would be way too much, because that would be a 100% mark-up.

 

The dealer is not trying to sell the coin 50% over face value. He is trying to sell it for at least, or probably more, than 50% over the going price. If that were not the case I would have not problem with his asking price.

[$ilverHawk]

The dealer is trying to sell the coin for as much as he can get. What's the problem? If you don't want to pay the price perhaps someone else will.

 

After all It"s a market.

 

Chill, you will get other opportunities.

 

$ilverHawk

[IGWT]

123 - By your reasoning, if a collector were to find a 19551c doubled die in circulaton, he would not be able to sell it for more than a couple cents. In fact, a couple cents would be way too much, because that would be a 100% mark-up.

 

The dealer is not trying to sell the coin 50% over face value. He is trying to sell it for at least, or probably more, than 50% over the going price. If that were not the case I would have not problem with his asking price.

 

You suggest that a seller should set a price based on his cost of acquisition. I was just trying to find an example to show why this isn't the case. A reasonable price is determined by the market at the time of resale, not by the cost incurred in purchasing (or finding) a coin.

[coinman1794]

At the last big Heritage Auction a Seated Dollar that I considered buying sold for $632.50 with the juice. I would have bought it but I had already spent too much and didn't need to bid on any more coins.

 

Today looking at a online dealers inventory I see the same Seated Dollar with a price tags of $980.00. Guys that's over a 50% markup.

 

I understand that a dealer has to make money but come on man! Over a 50% markup! I am so angry and mad I don't think I will ever bid or buy any coins from this dealer ever again. What do you think?

 

The amount that a coin sells for in auction is not necessarily the same as what the coin is worth. The dealer may have been willing to pay much more for the coin, but since no one outbid him, he got a deal. Why would he then charge considerably less than he believes it's worth? Also, rare coin markups can be anywhere from 10-75% depending on the dealer (yes some do mark certain coins up 75%), the coin, and how easy they think it will be to sell. A dealer factors in the time that coin sits in inventory into the buying price. There could also be a number of other factors making the coin worth more, like a cherrypicked variety, PQ surfaces, great eye appeal, etc. I absolutely would not avoid this seller because of this incident.

[WinstonWare]

Just out of curiosity, do we have a date and grade on this coin? An image perhaps?

 

Yes, Winston I have all that but my thread was not about that. I am not mad because I didn't win the coin. It was not a high priority with me. It was not a rare date. I can pick one up anytime. I just get angry with coins going straight from Heritage to some dealers inventory at a ridiculous markup.

 

If this doesn't bother you and you think this fair, great! Certainly the dealers and anybody, in fact, can ask whatever they want for whatever they are selling. I just have seen too much of this lately and will pretty much stick with buying from the Coin forum boards, Ebay, and the major auction companies.

 

I was just trying to get a sense of what the coin is actually worth. I'm more inclined to agree with you if the dealer has it overpriced. If it's worth close to what the dealer has it priced for, I see it as more of a missed opportunity for you and a rip for the dealer... JMHO

[123cents]

The dealer is trying to sell the coin for as much as he can get. What's the problem?

 

 

That is the problem. He is trying to sell the coin for as much as he can get not what the coin is worth.

 

I now see that almost all that have responded to this thread thinks there is nothing wrong or unethical with the asking price. I guess it's just me that has a problem and thinks it is not right which is fine. I own 25 PCGS or NGC Seated Dollars and I think I know the reasonable going price for these coins or I would have not made these comment in the first place. I will not make anymore comments on this forum about dealers. Have fun!

[IGWT]

I now see that almost all that have responded to this thread thinks there is nothing wrong or unethical with the asking price. I guess it's just me that has a problem and thinks it is not right which is fine. I will not make anymore comments on this forum about dealers. Have fun!

 

I don't know whether the asking price is exorbitant or not. All I know is that the answer doesn't necessarily depend on what the seller paid. Your observations and opinions have made for an interesting, polite discussion, so I don't see why you won't "make any more comments on this forum about dealers."

 

 

[WinstonWare]

I now see that almost all that have responded to this thread thinks there is nothing wrong or unethical with the asking price. I guess it's just me that has a problem and thinks it is not right which is fine. I will not make anymore comments on this forum about dealers. Have fun!

 

I don't know whether the asking price is exorbitant or not. All I know is that the answer doesn't necessarily depend on what the seller paid. Your observations and opinions have made for an interesting, polite discussion, so I don't see why you won't "make any more comments on this forum about dealers."

 

I agree with Lou. I thought this was just getting interesting.

[Catbert]

Winston - that 1800 dime in your type set is DA BOMB! What a coin.

[Houston Investor]

In terms of Coin World Trends how is this coin priced? Please provide specifics.

 

I was set up at a show last weekend. The guy I was sharing a table with sold a coin for around $3500 he later told me he had $800 in (just could not resist buying it at TTR). The coin was listed retail at $7000 I believe and was a problem coin he got from Teletrade described as having rim repair (you could not hardly tell he said). He cracked it out of the TPG holder and put it in a 2x2. His rationale is that people don't like to go to the trouble to crack coins out of slabs. I found this bizzare as I shudder at someone invalidating a grading certificate just to put a coin in an album. I believe the person buying it knew of the problem as his customers are people looking for decent looking coins for their albums. I did not see the coin but he said they did a good job of fixing the rim repair. What I found amazing was that someone would shell out $3300 for such a coin. To each his own.

 

Just because a dealer makes a nice profit on a coin does not mean he is selling it for some unreasonable amount over market retail or that market retail is an absolute valuation variable. Example: Coins with rainbow toning.

 

 

I remember bidding on coins for inventory at Coin Club meetings. Towards the beginning of the auction all the dealers knew that competetion from collectors for coins would be tough. But towards the end the collectors would run out of money and the dealers which held back got some good buys. When looking at the coins before the auction and makeing notes of ones I wanted to bid on, I would start at the last of the lots instead of the first. Cash is a trump card in the coin business.

[WinstonWare]

Winston - that 1800 dime in your type set is DA BOMB! What a coin.

Thank you. I really like the look of that one.

[bsshog40]

I can see the logic of being upset over someone buying and then over-pricing a coin to make a profit but I also see that most people that deal with buying and selling have a habit of doing this. It's not much different than a used car salesman, antique dealers, etc... It made me upset one year when I traded in my used truck for a new one and wasn't given quite the money I wanted for my trade-in, when 2 months later I seen my truck with about a 30% hike in the sale price than what I was given. BUT, I can't blame the dealer, that's his business. I took the offer and so be it. I don't mind trying to find a good deal on a coin and making some money on it if possible. The market is supply and demand. If you're not willing to pay a certain amount for something either the seller will go down or someone else will buy it for the asking price. If they sell it for more that only means that someone else is willing to pay more and the original buyer makes some money. It's just market reality in my opinion.

[$ilverHawk]

This has nothing to do with being a dealer. My profession is Sales and Marketing, not in the numismatic arena. However, there are commonalities in all seller /buyer transactions. In all cases the buyer can just say no.

 

Please underrstand, you may have a superior knowledge of the market for this coin others may not share this knowledge. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone paying more than what you consider a fair price for a coin. That's their problem for not taking the time and effort to find fair market value.

 

Step back in time and remember your initial venture into Seated Dollars and I would wager that you made a few errors in the prices you paid.

 

Hey, sometimes it's just the cost of experience.

 

$ilverHawk

[Houston Investor]

A friend of mine saw the 2004 Ford Mustang with 130,000 miles he traded in for $1000 listed on the dealers used car at $7400 (it needed about $3000 worth of work - timing chain change $1600, oil pan $700 to fix leak, manifold to fix oil leak $350, misc other stuff $350 and this not getting the ding out of the rear fender).

 

He said he knew about the $2250 Blue Book Trade In Value but facing those repairs took the trade in offer for a new Honda. He could not believe their asking price as he could see the car was still leaking oil and the fender ding had not been fixed. If you think coin dealers are bandits well.....what about auto dealers?

[123cents]

This has nothing to do with being a dealer. My profession is Sales and Marketing, not in the numismatic arena. However, there are commonalities in all seller /buyer transactions. In all cases the buyer can just say no.

 

Please underrstand, you may have a superior knowledge of the market for this coin others may not share this knowledge. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone paying more than what you consider a fair price for a coin. That's their problem for not taking the time and effort to find fair market value.

 

Step back in time and remember your initial venture into Seated Dollars and I would wager that you made a few errors in the prices you paid.

 

Hey, sometimes it's just the cost of experience.

 

$ilverHawk

 

Everything you say is true Silverhawk. I just wish it didn't have to be that way. To me coin collecting is a joyous hobby and losing great somes of money just to get experience takes alot of the joy out of the hobby for me and for others.

[gmarguli]

To me coin collecting is a joyous hobby and losing great somes of money just to get experience takes alot of the joy out of the hobby for me and for others.

 

Coin collecting is not a joyous hobby. It is a multi-billion dollar business. It may be a hobby to some end users (collectors), but to everyone else it is a business. Same for all hobbies.

[$ilverHawk]

 

I agree, I have taken hits on the coins I collect. St. Gaudens, Morgan Dollars and Walker Halves. I just view it as the initiation fee. Knowlegde is power and you have to pay your dues to acquire the proper knowledge.

 

Some buyers will not be able to make the jump to understanding market price and clearly evaluating the real value of a coin. Sad, but true.

 

BTW don't forget your good buys. Good luck in building your Seated Dollar set.

 

$ilverHawk

[$ilverHawk]

Hey, I thought this thread was about 1969 Camaros. What's with the Mustangs?

[MJ]

1) Just because the coin hammered for $632 doesn't mean you could have won it at the next bid. The winning bidder may have bid much more.

 

2) This coin could have been flipped already by the winning bidder to the current owner (as pointed out already) not that it matters.

 

3) Remember, the dealer has other expenses (travel, website, employees, insurance etc) that must be added to the true "landed" cost of every coin, therefore your your mark up figure is incomplete. On top of that they need to make a living. Every coin they purchase isn't a moneymaker so there is risk. They do have markdowns. Also, your dealer in this example may have viewed hundreds of coins at this auction just to "win" one or two coins.

 

I was recently outbid on a coin by Legend that hammered for $2100+. It ended up on their website for $2750. I bit the bullet and agreed to take the coin for $2650 because in the end I was realized that this coin was actually worth it to me. One hour after I confirmed that I wanted the coin I got an e-mail from George at Legend offering me money NOT to take delivery on the coin. They had another customer that REALLY wanted the coin and was willing to pay more. Legend was going to give me the difference! I passed. In the end Legends instincts were correct and so were mine in appraising this coin. I could have made a 10000000000% markup on this transaction as I had no expenses incured.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter......all the best. MJ

 

 

[Catbert]

OK, MJ, with that story, you really are obligated to POST A PIC!