Following the trail of a coin doctor is not all that difficult...

[kryptonitecomics]

So once again a member has contacted me via Ebay to provide some evidence of a known coin doctor up to his old tricks so once again I am sharing this info with the members here and across the street. I have already been in touch with Ebay and they are investigating and hopefully they will review the evidence presented and take action to remove this sellers two accounts. This seller’s auctions have been discussed on here many times so it shouldn't be much of a shock to any long standing members and I assure you this is no witch hunt. The facts are the facts and as such are beyond contestation....this seller is one of the biggest coin doctors on Ebay and he routinely ruins 100's if not thousands of coins each year, which is why I feel the need to try to protect the coin collecting community and our historical assets....the coins themselves.

 

This seller's MO is to buy coins raw on Ebay and I assume shows, artificial tone them and them dump them back on Ebay by the dozens. One search of Rainbow in the coin section and you will be inundated with his rainbow toned garbage. I really doubt any knowledgable collecto would ever purchase coins from this seller but since we have novice and beginning collectors on this forum, it would seem to be a good place for this type of a warning thread.

 

Now on to the facts:

 

cwbyup1051 & cbest7777 on Ebay are the same person, both sellers located in crestline,CA population 500 so same coins,same city,same ebay layouts,same photos,same rainbow colored coins......

 

Buyer cwbyup1051 Bought this item:

 

1876 Seated Liberty halve Dollae silver US"Coin BU+

 

Artificially toned it and then listed it a week later here under his cbest7777 user ID:

 

1876 P SEATED LIBERTY HALF DOLLAR HIGH GRADE TONED

 

 

another example:

 

 

Buyer cwbyup1051 bought these:

 

1920 PILGRIM TERCENTENARY HALF DOLLAR XF-AU. VERY NICE!

 

 

1920 Pilgrim Commem Half Dollar Silver "B.U.(cleaned)

 

Artificially toned one of them and then magically listed it under his cbest7777 user ID:

 

1920 PILGRAM TERCENTENARY HALF DOLLAR TONED

 

 

and finally:

 

UNC 1920 MAINE CENTENNIAL COMMEM HALF DOLLAR COIN NR

 

 

a little magic color dust.....and you get:

 

 

1920 MAINE CENTENNIAL COMMEM. HALF DOLLAR BU TONED

 

 

Personally I am all for a sellers making a buck buying and reselling on Ebay but to ruin coins in the process is just reprehensible

 

 

The policy on Ebay is very clear about disclosure as it relates to coins Ebay....

 

Per Ebay policy concerning the sale of coins: Sellers Must Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the coins or paper money.

 

Usually a seller may not know what's been done to a coin so they could use that as a loop hole, but if you are actively buying and altering the coins yourself then you must provide full disclosure to buyers, which this seller is not.

[MarkFeld]

Great job, Shane. I hope that Ebay will do something, based on the information you have presented. They should, as per their own rules, but that doesn't mean they will.

[TonerGuy]

Legally I am sure there is something that can be done with either the seller and or Ebay -- the policy is a contract with buyers and if they do not implement their own policies it can be seen as a breach....

[Mark T]

Great detective work .

Are you a member of the EBAY Coin fraud group ??

You should be , if you are not please let me know so I can have one of the moderators invite you in .

 

[kryptonitecomics]

I am not...never heard of it actually?

[cpm9ball]

Great work, Shane! A guy like that should be hung by a counterfeit rope.

 

Chris

[murty]

Thanks..very informative

[Schatzy]

[kryptonitecomics]

Here is even more of his carnage plus I have a lot of info on other coins he has bought and haven't shown up with the clown colors.....yet

 

 

 

1926 Oregon Trail Memorial Half Dollar

 

to this abomination...

 

1926 OREGON TRAIL HALF DOLLAR TONED ROTATED DIE

 

 

and he hit the mother load with this lot of commems:

 

9 Carver Washinton SILVER half dollars 1951 - 1954 UNC

 

 

now .... these

 

1952 P Washington Carver Half Dollar Rainbow Toned

 

1951 P Washington Carver Half Dollar Rainbow Toned

 

1953 S Washington Carver Half Dollar BU+ Rainbow Toned

 

1951 P Washington Carver Half Dollar AU+ Rainbow Toned

 

1951 P Washington Carver Half Dollar Rainbow Toned

[Mark T]

I am not...never heard of it actually?

 

It is a private EBAy group that searches out Counterfeit and fraudulent EBAy listings . The listings in question are then reported to EBAY .

 

[kryptonitecomics]

I am not...never heard of it actually?

 

It is a private EBAy group that searches out Counterfeit and fraudulent EBAy listings . The listings in question are then reported to EBAY .

 

 

The key is does Ebay take action

[gmarguli]

Legally I am sure there is something that can be done with either the seller and or Ebay -- the policy is a contract with buyers and if they do not implement their own policies it can be seen as a breach....

 

The policy (not contract) is between the seller and eBay, not the buyer. eBay may have grounds for terminating their arrangement between itself and the seller, but the buyer doesn't appear to be any party in this wording. Also note that eBay is using the word policy and not contract. Policy can change at whim and is not nearly as concrete as a contract.

 

Also, the term "alteration" is vague. For example, my local dry cleaner advertises "Dry Cleaning & Alterations". I take my suit in and ask them to hem the legs. Is this an alteration? Clearly yes. I ask them to dry clean it. Is this an alteration? No. Apply the same logic to coins. You'll never get complete agreement about whether it would be an alteration and you now lose your case.

[MarkFeld]

Legally I am sure there is something that can be done with either the seller and or Ebay -- the policy is a contract with buyers and if they do not implement their own policies it can be seen as a breach....

 

The policy (not contract) is between the seller and eBay, not the buyer. eBay may have grounds for terminating their arrangement between itself and the seller, but the buyer doesn't appear to be any party in this wording. Also note that eBay is using the word policy and not contract. Policy can change at whim and is not nearly as concrete as a contract.

 

Also, the term "alteration" is vague. For example, my local dry cleaner advertises "Dry Cleaning & Alterations". I take my suit in and ask them to hem the legs. Is this an alteration? Clearly yes. I ask them to dry clean it. Is this an alteration? No. Apply the same logic to coins. You'll never get complete agreement about whether it would be an alteration and you now lose your case.

I don't think many people would dispute the point that the Ebay seller in question is indeed, altering coins. We're not talking about clothes and the dry cleaner here, where "alteration" would obviously have a very different meaning.

[cpm9ball]

Also, the term "alteration" is vague. For example, my local dry cleaner advertises "Dry Cleaning & Alterations". I take my suit in and ask them to hem the legs. Is this an alteration? Clearly yes.

 

What if they had hemmed the pants legs to mid-calf or knee-length?

 

Chris

[gmarguli]

I don't think many people would dispute the point that the Ebay seller in question is indeed, altering coins. We're not talking about clothes and the dry cleaner here, where "alteration" would obviously have a very different meaning.

 

I believe the US Secret Service is the final authority on coinage in our country. If this coin were submitted to them and asked if it were "altered", what do you think they would say?

[MarkFeld]

I don't think many people would dispute the point that the Ebay seller in question is indeed, altering coins. We're not talking about clothes and the dry cleaner here, where "alteration" would obviously have a very different meaning.

 

I believe the US Secret Service is the final authority on coinage in our country. If this coin were submitted to them and asked if it were "altered", what do you think they would say?

I think Ebay is the final authority on what constitutes "altered", as per their listing policies.

[gmarguli]

I don't think many people would dispute the point that the Ebay seller in question is indeed, altering coins. We're not talking about clothes and the dry cleaner here, where "alteration" would obviously have a very different meaning.

 

I believe the US Secret Service is the final authority on coinage in our country. If this coin were submitted to them and asked if it were "altered", what do you think they would say?

I think Ebay is the final authority on what constitutes "altered", as per their listing policies.

 

So you mean that there is no clear or set definition at all and we have to guess as to what eBay thinks this week.

 

I'm sure eBay will do absolutely nothing about this - nor should they.

[bsshog40]

Way to go Shane! Hopefully this will get out further and no one will buy and ebay will dump his but!

[kryptonitecomics]

I don't think many people would dispute the point that the Ebay seller in question is indeed, altering coins. We're not talking about clothes and the dry cleaner here, where "alteration" would obviously have a very different meaning.

 

I believe the US Secret Service is the final authority on coinage in our country. If this coin were submitted to them and asked if it were "altered", what do you think they would say?

I think Ebay is the final authority on what constitutes "altered", as per their listing policies.

 

So you mean that there is no clear or set definition at all and we have to guess as to what eBay thinks this week.

 

I'm sure eBay will do absolutely nothing about this - nor should they.

 

 

I usually see your point in a lot of things you post Greg but frankly that may be the dumbest statement I have ever seen you post...Ebay should absolutely care and so should you or your in the wrong hobby. Let's not play semantics here and act like everyone including you, this seller, and Ebay don't know what constitutes altered and or full disclosure...as it pertains to coins

[$ilverHawk]

I am in total agreement with your viewpoint and agree with Greg on half of his comment.

 

Of course eBay should ban sellers of altered coins. Particularly when it is so obvious and done with the intention of deceiving buyers. The fact is eBay is centered on the bottom line. Why else would eBay allow so many Chinese counterfeits to be sold? Have you ever searched St. Gaudens $20 Double Eagle and see how many mini coins come up?

 

I've reported more than my fair share of counterfeits and altered coins only to find that eBay did not remove the auction. Yes, they removed a few, but not all.

 

Back to the subject, I share your passion about what this particular seller is doing to coins and more importantly to the field of Numismatics. I hope that the group that Mark T refers to can actually influence eBay to take a more active role in stopping these listings. My experience is they will not. Profit is more important.

[Hard Times]

Hi Krypt,

What process is he using to get the AT? One can see that the colors are not looking natural - pink for example..... and the green does not look right...... And he must do this quickly - no aging involved.

[cpm9ball]

What really burns me to no end, is that he is totally destroying perfectly good coins. I thought I would die when I saw that Oregon Trail.

 

Chris

[gmarguli]

I don't think many people would dispute the point that the Ebay seller in question is indeed, altering coins. We're not talking about clothes and the dry cleaner here, where "alteration" would obviously have a very different meaning.

 

I believe the US Secret Service is the final authority on coinage in our country. If this coin were submitted to them and asked if it were "altered", what do you think they would say?

I think Ebay is the final authority on what constitutes "altered", as per their listing policies.

 

So you mean that there is no clear or set definition at all and we have to guess as to what eBay thinks this week.

 

I'm sure eBay will do absolutely nothing about this - nor should they.

 

 

I usually see your point in a lot of things you post Greg but frankly that may be the dumbest statement I have ever seen you post...Ebay should absolutely care and so should you or your in the wrong hobby. Let's not play semantics here and act like everyone including you, this seller, and Ebay don't know what constitutes altered and or full disclosure...as it pertains to coins

 

I have no idea what eBay had in mind when they used the word "altered". To me an altered coin is more along the lines of added mint mark or changed date. Is dipping considered altering? If so, should eBay end every auction for any silver coin more than 20 years old that is blast white?

 

I also don't care about this because there is clearly a market for this type of stuff. While I may not want it in my collection, there are enough people who do. I have no desire for colorized or gold plated state quarters, but there is clearly a market for them also.

[TonerGuy]

Actually Ebay doesnt just have policies there is a contract they must abide by as well as all members of their site and here it is....

 

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html

 

and there are legal remedies if someone wants to pursue that option...

 

Arbitration Option - For any claim (excluding claims for injunctive or other equitable relief) where the total amount of the award sought is less than $10,000, the party requesting relief may elect to resolve the dispute in a cost effective manner through binding non-appearance-based arbitration. In the event a party elects arbitration, they shall initiate such arbitration through an established alternative dispute resolution ("ADR") provider mutually agreed upon by the parties. The ADR provider and the parties must comply with the following rules: (a) the arbitration shall be conducted by telephone, online and/or be solely based on written submissions, the specific manner shall be chosen by the party initiating the arbitration; (b) the arbitration shall not involve any personal appearance by the parties or witnesses unless otherwise mutually agreed by the parties; and © any judgment on the award rendered by the arbitrator may be entered in any court of competent jurisdiction.

 

or you can report further problems to....

 

In accordance with Cal. Civ. Code §1789.3, you may report complaints to the Complaint Assistance Unit of the Division of Consumer Services of the California Department of Consumer Affairs by contacting them in writing at 400 R Street, Sacramento, CA 95814, or by telephone at (800) 952-5210.

 

Ebay is not the end all be all final arbitrator .....

[HiHoAudio]

Thanks for the great detective work Shane and alerting us to this fraud.

[RareSov]

I asked a question on eBay "how do you tone the coins that way please give some tips"

 

His reply "Are you joking?"

 

My reply NO those are artificially toned coins

[kryptonitecomics]

Well at least you got a response from him...I have sent 3 notes with different auction numbers to Ebay and so far all I have gotten is there generic response back....and the seller is still live so I guess that's my answer

[WoodenJefferson]

Seller approaches used car lot dealer.

Seller: The rear end is going out and I want to sell this car.

Dealer: There is a listing fee + a percentage of the sale price, plus we have to discount.

Seller: OK, I understand.

Dealer: Lists the car and car flipper arrives.

Flipper: I want to buy this car.

Dealer: Our policy is to disclose any problems, the differential is going out on this one.

Flipper: Not a problem…it is heavily discounted, sold.

One week later Flipper’s twin brother returns to dealer with functional car (saw dust added to differential)

Flipper: I want to sell this car, it is problem free.

Dealer: There is a listing fee + a percentage of the sale price, we should be able to sell this car for a premium.

Flipper: OK, write it up and let me know when it sells.