"..any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors is artificially toned"..

[MarkFeld]

I just read some very interesting comments from David Hall, who stated:

 

Here's a little controversy...do naturally rainbow toned Peace dollars exist...I don't think so. Here's what I said on PCGS CoinFacts...

 

Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins.

 

So...I never saw a single Rainbow toned Peace dollar in the 1960s or 1970s, but of course I saw thousands of rainbow Morgans. Perhaps the silver was a little different, or handled a little different. You certainly don't see the white spots on Morgans that you see on 1922 and 1923 Peace dollars. Anyway...that's what I think.

What do you folks think? I'll chime in later

[RWB]

There should be little difference in natural toning patterns between 1921 Morgans and most Peace dollars. The canvas bags and storage conditions were similar for all Pittman dollars.

[kryptonitecomics]

I responded over there that I thought it was very irresponsible of Mr. Hall to make a blanket statement like that especially in light of his reasoning behind the statement. He only saw Peace dollars with gold toning 40+ years ago so I guess if any coins moves further in the toning progression over the span of 40-50 years then that is just such a crazy idea that the coin must be AT.

 

For those collectors who own some of these very same coins in PCGS holders....I am sure there will be a flood of presidential reviews to recoup their money since obvioulsy PCGS is now saying they were slabbed in error

[James_OldeTowne]

...any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins.

Seems like an incredibly stupid statement to me. After all, if someone put Peace dollars into an album in 1970 - 40 years ago - that's plenty of time to develop rainbow toning. And a 40 year interlude can hardly be called "sudden".

 

Besides that, I have unquestionably bought and sold rainbow-toned Peace dollars that were demonstrably naturally toned. In fact, I own about a dozen right now, picked up over ten years of meticulous searching. Now, they are much scarcer than comparably toned Morgans, but that's a reflection of the popularity of Morgan over Peace type.

 

I simply do not believe David Hall, or anyone else, remembers exactly what kind of toning they saw in the 1960s - unless it was drug-induced.

 

(Of course, I'm assuming that albums are a source of natural toning. Some people would say that coins with album toning are artificially toned.)

[mommam17]

I think David Hall is telling everyone there will be no more rainbow Peace Dollars certified by PCGS. That`s the message I get, though I don`t agree.

[MarkFeld]

...Besides that, I have unquestionably bought and sold rainbow-toned Peace dollars that were demonstrably naturally toned. ...

James, whenever I see a comment like that (containing words such as "unquestionably" and "demonstrably naturally") I am compelled to ask - how do you KNOW? What FACTS do you base your comment on.

 

By the way, as worded - "..any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned" - I think Mr. Hall's comments were overly broad and I must disagree with his conclusions.

 

In addition to the fact that he couldn't have seen anywhere remotely close to all of the examples in existence at the time he was looking, there are other considerations/explanations, such as the subsequent storage and toning of coins during the past few decades.

 

I also wonder what the repercussions of his remarks will be, since there are more than a few colorfully toned Peace Dollars in PCGS holders?

[James_OldeTowne]

James, whenever I see a comment like that (containing words such as "unquestionably" and "demonstrably naturally") I am compelled to ask - how do you KNOW?

I knew you would !

 

A friend of mine received a Whitman album of Peace dollars for his birthday in 1979 or 1980 (when silver was very high), and several of them developed rainbow tone. A couple of them were a welcome addition to my own collection about five years ago. Sure, there was no closed-circuit camera pointed at the album for 25 years... but I really do believe they were stored as such in that long timeframe. I have 100% confidence they are 100% naturally toned.

 

About eight years ago, I picked up a dollar album from an Ivey-Selkirk sale, and it had random BU silver dollars in it. This collection had been stored untouched in a garage for fifty years, and most of the coins were garbage, because cans of motor oil had leaked onto most of them. Fortunately, the silver-dollar album survived. I was able to buy the dollar collection intact, and it contained mostly common Morgans - but a very few BU Peace dollars that were rainbow toned.

 

By the way, PCGS (under David Hall's tutelage at the time) graded the rainbow toned 1927-S MS-61, and the 1928-S MS-62 way back when. Here again, there was no camera beaming on the album in the garage for fifty years, but I would bet anything I own that the coins really did tone in that album over that length of time.

 

AND, to boot, I now have a NEW crop of BU dollars stored in that same album, and it has remained untouched on my library shelf all this time. I have resisted opening it up for eight years. In two more years, I will check the coins and see if they have toned.

 

OK, I cannot give absolute *PROOF* that the coins were stored as I described them, but in each case, I am compelled by the circumstances to believe 100% that they are completely original and naturally album-toned Peace dollars. (And yes, I believe coins toned in an album are naturally toned.)

[James_OldeTowne]

Follow-up post: I have known for a long time that beautifully toned Peace dollars are rare. In addition to the album mentioned above, I also placed some into those Canadian dollar clamshell holders several years ago. Those holders are know for producing absolutely stunning rainbow tone on Canadian silver, so I thought I'd see what they do to U.S. silver. This, I consider "natural toning" as well, even though it is my intent to get some color on the coins .

 

Edited to add: In about ten years of dealing coins off and on, I'll bet I've handled a ratio of 50 to 1 rainbow-toned Morgan dollars vs. Peace type. The latter are that rare.

[MarkFeld]

James, whenever I see a comment like that (containing words such as "unquestionably" and "demonstrably naturally") I am compelled to ask - how do you KNOW?

I knew you would !

 

A friend of mine received a Whitman album of Peace dollars for his birthday in 1979 or 1980 (when silver was very high), and several of them developed rainbow tone. A couple of them were a welcome addition to my own collection about five years ago. Sure, there was no closed-circuit camera pointed at the album for 25 years... but I really do believe they were stored as such in that long timeframe. I have 100% confidence they are 100% naturally toned.

 

About eight years ago, I picked up a dollar album from an Ivey-Selkirk sale, and it had random BU silver dollars in it. This collection had been stored untouched in a garage for fifty years, and most of the coins were garbage, because cans of motor oil had leaked onto most of them. Fortunately, the silver-dollar album survived. I was able to buy the dollar collection intact, and it contained mostly common Morgans - but a very few BU Peace dollars that were rainbow toned.

 

By the way, PCGS graded the 1927-S MS-61, and the 1928-S MS-62 way back when. Here again, there was no camera beaming on the album in the garage for fifty years, but I would bet anything I own that the coins really did tone in that album over that length of time.

 

AND, to boot, I now have a NEW crop of BU dollars stored in that same album, and it has remained untouched on my library shelf all this time. I have resisted opening it up for eight years. In two more years, I will check the coins and see if they have toned.

 

OK, I cannot give absolute *PROOF* that the coins were stored as I described them, but in each case, I am compelled by the circumstances to believe 100% that they are completely original and naturally album-toned Peace dollars. (And yes, I believe coins toned in an album are naturally toned.)

Thanks James, and I doubt that your experience is anywhere close to unique - in other words, there are probably a good number of naturally (album) toned colorful Peace Dollars in existence. Now, why did you "force" me to ask you for those details?

[gmarguli]

A moronic statement. They are rare, but to say they are all AT is showing that he is clueless.

 

A few years ago I purchased a collection that was housed in paper envelopes. Included in it were several Peace dollars with rainbow toning. This toning matched the look of the other type coins that were also housed in these envelopes. I have zero doubt that they were NT.

 

There are also quite a few 1922-1924 Peace dollars that are rainbow toned and all appear to have come out of the same hoard. Story was they were all stored in albums. These are all in PCGS & NGC slabs. None of these coins has the look of being AT. They're just nice rainbow toned, but not super wild.

[James_OldeTowne]

why did you "force" me to ask you for those details?

PM sent!

[Tradedollarnut]

I agree with the interpretation that he's actually saying rainbow toned Peace collars aren't market acceptable to PCGS any more. In my opinion, AT and NT really are no longer useable designations as there's simply too much middle ground.

 

Storing coins in Wayte Raymond albums may very well make them AT - I know my local dealer puts silver bullion in them and puts them on top of his lamps at his shop. Wild!

[kryptonitecomics]

I agree with the interpretation that he's actually saying rainbow toned Peace collars aren't market acceptable to PCGS any more. In my opinion, AT and NT really are no longer useable designations as there's simply too much middle ground.

 

Storing coins in Wayte Raymond albums may very well make them AT - I know my local dealer puts silver bullion in them and puts them on top of his lamps at his shop. Wild!

 

 

 

Not to speak for Mr.Hall but if that was his intention....maybe he could have been a little clearer vs damning a lot of coins already in PCGS holder....just a thought

[mommam17]

Isn`t PCGS responsible for all the rainbow Peace Dollars in their holders that, according to David Hall, are AT?

[WoodenJefferson]

Well, I just knew David Hall’s statement about Peace Dollars was going to raise quite a few hackles on toned collectors necks, it’s to be expected, but I happen to agree with Mr. Hall’s conclusion since my very own eyes purported exactly what he was speaking of.

 

When I went to a major coin show in Milwaukee in 1965, I saw plenty of raw Peace dollars in books, flips, 2x2’s and some just where you could search through them in boxes.

 

The only reason I remember Peace dollars is my Grandmother gave me one for one of my birthdays and I never held such a heavy coin and was intrigued by it’s size, wondering, how in the heck did people carry these things around.

 

Anyway, getting back to the coloration of Peace dollars, at that coin show, the Morgan’s out weighed the Peace dollars by about 90% and I did not recall any dealer specializing in Peace dollars, they were always off to the side or under, treated much like step child.

 

I remember seeing vividly rim toned Morgan dollars and a few covered in color, but one has to remember, back in the late 60’s and early 70’s, blast white coins were in demand and toned coins were considered, well, just, “tarnished” As weird as that may seem to you, a “rainbow” Morgan was very specialized and only sought after by a few.

 

The toned Peace dollars I did see were brown to a reddish brown with maybe, just maybe a hint of blue around the rims. There was no magenta, no red, no blue, no green or any other “neon” color.

 

The Morgan Dollars from 1878 through 1904 were conceived in world with renown artist, who’s silver canvases conveyed that true workmanship. The return of the 1921 Morgan was but an attempt to recreate an era when the US Mints created true works of art, but they only managed to duplicate, not replicate. This is why you do not see a lot of colorful 1921 Morgan’s, the facilities lost the ability to recreate those bygone days and were left to just hammer out silver coins.

 

The Peace dollars that followed also mimicked the 1921 Morgan’s inability to morph into some of the great “rainbow” Morgan’s we see today.

 

So yes, I agree with David Halls assessment that if you see a colorful Peace dollar, look closely because something, somehow manipulated those colors that tried fight back.

 

(note: subsequent years also bolster my belief about Peace dollars)

[kryptonitecomics]

Well, I just knew David Hall’s statement about Peace Dollars was going to raise quite a few hackles on toned collectors necks, it’s to be expected, but I happen to agree with Mr. Hall’s conclusion since my very own eyes purported exactly what he was speaking of.

 

When I went to a major coin show in Milwaukee in 1965, I saw plenty of raw Peace dollars in books, flips, 2x2’s and some just where you could search through them in boxes.

 

The only reason I remember Peace dollars is my Grandmother gave me one for one of my birthdays and I never held such a heavy coin and was intrigued by it’s size, wondering, how in the heck did people carry these things around.

 

Anyway, getting back to the coloration of Peace dollars, at that coin show, the Morgan’s out weighed the Peace dollars by about 90% and I did not recall any dealer specializing in Peace dollars, they were always off to the side or under, treated much like step child.

 

I remember seeing vividly rim toned Morgan dollars and a few covered in color, but one has to remember, back in the late 60’s and early 70’s, blast white coins were in demand and toned coins were considered, well, just, “tarnished” As weird as that may seem to you, a “rainbow” Morgan was very specialized and only sought after by a few.

 

The toned Peace dollars I did see were brown to a reddish brown with maybe, just maybe a hint of blue around the rims. There was no magenta, no red, no blue, no green or any other “neon” color.

 

The Morgan Dollars from 1878 through 1904 were conceived in world with renown artist, who’s silver canvases conveyed that true workmanship. The return of the 1921 Morgan was but an attempt to recreate an era when the US Mints created true works of art, but they only managed to duplicate, not replicate. This is why you do not see a lot of colorful 1921 Morgan’s, the facilities lost the ability to recreate those bygone days and were left to just hammer out silver coins.

 

The Peace dollars that followed also mimicked the 1921 Morgan’s inability to morph into some of the great “rainbow” Morgan’s we see today.

 

So yes, I agree with David Halls assessment that if you see a colorful Peace dollar, look closely because something, somehow manipulated those colors that tried fight back.

 

(note: subsequent years also bolster my belief about Peace dollars)

 

 

The fact that you or Mr.hall don't recall seeing these coins in 1965 has no bearing on facts.... based specifically on your statement that toning was not popular in the 60's and 70's. Why would a dealer lug tarnished coins he couldn't sell to a show?....heck even GSA dollars weren't put into uncirculated holders becuase they considered it damage?

 

How can you explain away Peace dollars toning in albums over a 40-50 year period since then? If they are all AT then pretty much all toned coins from the 60's on are AT and PCGS is in huge financial trouble becuase they are going to need to pay up big time

[James_OldeTowne]

I really don't think it is wise to assess the overall respectability of the Peace dollar as a collected series from the standpoint of what was going on during the 1960s. After all, in 1960, they had only been discontinued 25 years earlier! Heck, they were still in circulation at that time. It's kind of like pointing at 1982 Zinc cents today and discussing them as collectibles.

 

So my suspicion is that few collectors really put these coins aside (in other words, into albums, Kraft envelopes, etc.) until the 1970s. To my knowledge, even in the 1970s, it was barely a collectable series, and examples could be had for $2. So, it is no surprise that the best ones didn't appear until even later than that. I mean, why would I even bother to set out my nicest Peace dollars when they were hardly worth any premium?

 

But again, I would say that those of you who started this series in the 1970s, and those of us who started the series in the 1980s could very easily be the source of many of the truly natural rainbow-toned Peace dollars seen on the market now. I am sure that by 1979, when silver was going bonkers, these suddenly became highly desirable, and many album collections undoubtedly were begun at this time. Just because rainbow-toned Peace dollars MIGHT not have been around in 1960 doesn't mean they couldn't have become naturally available by 1980 (not to mention today).

 

Some albums can naturally tone silver coins in five years or so.

[coinman1794]

I agree with the interpretation that he's actually saying rainbow toned Peace collars aren't market acceptable to PCGS any more. In my opinion, AT and NT really are no longer useable designations as there's simply too much middle ground.

 

Storing coins in Wayte Raymond albums may very well make them AT - I know my local dealer puts silver bullion in them and puts them on top of his lamps at his shop. Wild!

 

Storing your coins in coin albums is not going to produce AT. That's where rainbow toned coins come from! Cooking those albums will, however

 

Actually, natural toning can occure in theoretically millions of colors. The color depends on the thickness of the toning, as determined by the amount of oxidized metal and what other contaminants are in the way, and causing the light to refract into different colors. Coins were not stored in a sealed laboratory, and anything is possible. For anyone to say that rainbow toning on a peace dollar is impossible is scientifically bankrupt. Plus, many of the coins that have surfaces since the 60s were not available for examination in the 60s, and further, they have had a good 40 years to change further since that time.

[WoodenJefferson]

Just call me crazy then. because I say that Peace dollars will not become colorful examples like naturally occurring Morgans.

 

This could be debated back and forth like a tennis match and soon everyone will have nothing more than a stiff neck.

[coinman1794]

Just call me crazy then. because I say that Peace dollars will not become colorful examples like naturally occurring Morgans.

 

This could be debated back and forth like a tennis match and soon everyone will have nothing more than a stiff neck.

 

You're not crazy, but I dont think your approaching the question from the same angle as some of us. I'm not not sure if anyone thinks they usually come in the same colors as morgans, I certainly don't. I would be suspect of one that did. Most of the rainbow toned peace dollars I've seen were very different than what comes on morgans, but they were still rainbow toned coins. Peace dollars with color originated in different ways than rainbow morgans, most of which were toned strictly in bags. Peace dollars are decades newer than Morgans, and didnt sit in bags as long.

[kryptonitecomics]

Just call me crazy then. because I say that Peace dollars will not become colorful examples like naturally occurring Morgans.

 

This could be debated back and forth like a tennis match and soon everyone will have nothing more than a stiff neck.

 

 

We agree with you...just not Mr. Hall.....they won't tone like colorful morgans under almost any circumstances.....but they can and do tone in greens and reds and blue in a natural environment contrary to what Mr. Hall stated

[coinman1794]

 

 

The Morgan Dollars from 1878 through 1904 were conceived in world with renown artist, who’s silver canvases conveyed that true workmanship. The return of the 1921 Morgan was but an attempt to recreate an era when the US Mints created true works of art, but they only managed to duplicate, not replicate. This is why you do not see a lot of colorful 1921 Morgan’s, the facilities lost the ability to recreate those bygone days and were left to just hammer out silver coins.

 

Is this a serious statement?

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Just call me crazy then. because I say that Peace dollars will not become colorful examples like naturally occurring Morgans.

 

This could be debated back and forth like a tennis match and soon everyone will have nothing more than a stiff neck.

WJ, what would you surmise to be different about Peace vs. Morgans, aside from storage? Metal content? Rinse? Just wondering what you think would be the factor to prevent Peace dollars from being able to acquire the same colors as Morgans.

[MAULEMALL]

Just call me crazy then. because I say that Peace dollars will not become colorful examples like naturally occurring Morgans.

 

This could be debated back and forth like a tennis match and soon everyone will have nothing more than a stiff neck.

 

 

We agree with you...just not Mr. Hall.....they won't tone like colorful morgans under almost any circumstances.....but they can and do tone in greens and reds and blue in a natural environment contrary to what Mr. Hall stated

[coinman1794]

 

 

The toned Peace dollars I did see were brown to a reddish brown with maybe, just maybe a hint of blue around the rims. There was no magenta, no red, no blue, no green or any other “neon” color.

 

The Morgan Dollars from 1878 through 1904 were conceived in world with renown artist, who’s silver canvases conveyed that true workmanship. The return of the 1921 Morgan was but an attempt to recreate an era when the US Mints created true works of art, but they only managed to duplicate, not replicate. This is why you do not see a lot of colorful 1921 Morgan’s, the facilities lost the ability to recreate those bygone days and were left to just hammer out silver coins.

 

In the 1960s, Peace dollars were MODERN coins. They were probably bagged in different types of bags, and they didn't sit in those bags for as many decades, so the toning you see on 1880s Morgans didn't have a chance to develop.

 

And, the 40 years that have passed since those days is enough time for a coin to go from blast white to charcoal black, under the right conditions. Toning is not a static feature. It changes over time with environmental conditions. Many of the white coins in 1965 could be very attractively toned today. Nothing can completely stop the process.

 

Rainbow toned peace dollars are very rare, and I know there are AT coins on the market. I am one of the hardest evaluators of color coins that I know of, I also have a masters degree in artifact preservation techniques. But that helps me to know that there are also nice original colorful coins out there. They are not like rainbow Morgans with reds, greens, and some of the neon swaths of color. They are usually pastel with blue, purple, magenta, and pink. I wonder what that blue rimmed dollar in 1965 looks like today

[Doogy]

At his position inside of a publicly traded company, he is merely a politician at this point. This was simply a prosaic way of announcing that PCGS will not grade any more colorfully toned Peace dollars to avoid having to pay for any going bad in the holders. What he may have forgotten though, is that PCGS has already slabbed many of these apparantly AT'd dollars over the years. Credibility is waning...........

[dean1345]

I would think twice before I sent any denomination to PCGS if the coin is toned. When I see a coin blast white and is over 100 years that raises a red flag for me!

[ant]

i think that any silver dollar can be toned. back in the day casinos would clean there coins all the time cause of the ladies white gloves getting messed up. these washes could have started a reaction.

 

also the chems in the coin books on the papers and such could have also been a problem. much like aspestose, we just didnt know till a certin time.

[WoodenJefferson]

Just call me crazy then. because I say that Peace dollars will not become colorful examples like naturally occurring Morgans.

 

This could be debated back and forth like a tennis match and soon everyone will have nothing more than a stiff neck.

WJ, what would you surmise to be different about Peace vs. Morgans, aside from storage? Metal content? Rinse? Just wondering what you think would be the factor to prevent Peace dollars from being able to acquire the same colors as Morgans.

 

Anything and everything is pure speculation at to what was done to the planchets of the 1921 Morgan and subsequent Peace dollar years, the only one who might really know would be Roger Burdette. He has uncovered more information about Peace dollars than anyone alive right now. Maybe we can coax an answer out of him.

 

I have known for a long time that the Mint used an acidic wash after the annealing process, this was accomplished in order to return the planchet back to that once silvery rolled out disc. The level of acid/time spent in solution could be a factor in inhibiting future oxidization. I do believe this wash is highly speculative in the case of those pesky milk spots, no?

[WoodenJefferson]

 

 

The Morgan Dollars from 1878 through 1904 were conceived in world with renown artist, who’s silver canvases conveyed that true workmanship. The return of the 1921 Morgan was but an attempt to recreate an era when the US Mints created true works of art, but they only managed to duplicate, not replicate. This is why you do not see a lot of colorful 1921 Morgan’s, the facilities lost the ability to recreate those bygone days and were left to just hammer out silver coins.

 

Is this a serious statement?

 

 

Do you think the Morgan Silver Dollar is NOT a work of art?