Should A TPG Buy Back A Counterfeit Coin From The Submitter?

[gmarguli]

Interesting (cough) hypothetical (cough) situation. For debate purposes, let's assume:

 

I purchased a foreign coin online and upon receipt I immediately noticed that it was counterfeit. It's not even a great counterfeit. Based on my initial observations, it appears noticeably underweight, possibly not minted in the proper metal fineness, and looks oddly new.

 

To confirm my opinion it was submitted to a TPG. They slabbed it as genuine. I won't say I am 100% sure it is counterfeit, but I'm 99% sure it is and I've owned more of these than they've slabbed.

 

As the submitter of the coin - and submitting it with the expectation that it would be bodybagged as counterfeit - would it be fair/right to ask the TPG to buy it from me should I be able to prove it's counterfeit? For sake of this question, assume this can be proven very easily by showing it to their main authenticator who did not see this coin at time of submission.

[bsshog40]

I say "Do what you think is right to you". I know that might not be the in-depth answer you're looking for but that's all I have without having your knowledge of the coin.

[ldhair]

If I made a deal with the seller to only buy the coin if it came back genuine and it did but is later proven to be a fake, I would expect the TPG to take care of the problem.

It could be tough trying to go back to the seller after all this.

[physics-fan3.14]

I didn't realize there would be a question about this. That is the whole point of their guarantee: if they slab something which can be proven as counterfeit, they will fix the problem.

[gmarguli]

I didn't realize there would be a question about this. That is the whole point of their guarantee: if they slab something which can be proven as counterfeit, they will fix the problem.

 

I know they will buy it back, but should they or should it even be presented to them? Isn't it a little odd to submit a coin and then have that same submitter turn around and ask them to pay for their mistake?

[Tradedollarnut]

I didn't realize there would be a question about this. That is the whole point of their guarantee: if they slab something which can be proven as counterfeit, they will fix the problem.

 

I know they will buy it back, but should they or should it even be presented to them? Isn't it a little odd to submit a coin and then have that same submitter turn around and ask them to pay for their mistake?

 

That depends on whether they banned you from their forum for life or not, don't you think?

[bsshog40]

Do you think they would admit it was a counterfiet if it was recently graded?

[bartlesvilleok]

Not only do I think they should buy it back but I also do not think you should feel bad or there even be a question as to if they would buy it back because you sent it in.

 

The whole reason you sent it in was to see if it was a fake or not. They claimed it to be genuine and with them doing that it basicly means that there is no way for you to go back on the seller for a refund (it would be VERY hard to do anyway).

 

Do not fell bad about having them so this, it is why they get paid the big money for a little plastic holder.

[RWB]

The primary purpose for those companies to exist is authentication. If they certified a fake, then they should accept responsibility for their error.

[physics-fan3.14]

I didn't realize there would be a question about this. That is the whole point of their guarantee: if they slab something which can be proven as counterfeit, they will fix the problem.

 

I know they will buy it back, but should they or should it even be presented to them? Isn't it a little odd to submit a coin and then have that same submitter turn around and ask them to pay for their mistake?

 

You're asking is it akin to entrapment? Possibly - but that doesn't change the fact that they have a guarantee, they slabbed a fake, and they need to rectify their error.

[Glossy]

Given the wording of your (hypothetical) situation, I would tend to think you knew something the TPG didn't know about the coin. You believe it's a fake, send it in, and after submission you still believe it's a fake.

 

I'm thinking you pulled a fast one on the TPG, but I'm not the TPG, so I won't answer for them

[jpolz]

I agree that if it's a counterfeit they should pay -- that's part of the service you paid them when you sent the coin in for certification. After all "The PCGS holder - Think of it as low-cost insurance on your numismatic investment."

 

Besides, upon being made aware of the error they should - in theory - become better able to spot such fakes in the future. Which hurts the conterfeiters.

 

You didn't do anything ethically wrong, because you purchased a business service, and there isn't anywhere on the form that says "If you think the coin is a fake please include information ... ". You thought it probably was, sent it in expecting one result, but got another. It happens.

[Glossy]

 

You didn't do anything ethically wrong... You thought it probably was, sent it in expecting one result, but got another. It happens.

 

I know it's all hypothetical, but in my opinion, what he did was wrong. I don't think he expected the "genuine" or "one result", from what I understand, he expected a non-genuine result. He knew it wasn't genuine, and for some reason still sent it in.

 

[MarkFeld]

Under the specific circumstances described, I don't think they should pay you anything other than the grading fees. You've suffered no loss, and I think that is, or should be the determining factor. And I'm not picking on you - you may or may not know that after some thought, I answered the same in another "hypothetical".

[jpolz]

Mark,

 

Shouldn't PCGS, NGC or any other TPG's guarantee apply equally to all submitters?

 

If I send them a raw 1924 Saint Gaudens that I bought for slightly over melt and they slab it, then a year later I try to sell it and it turns out to be fake -- shouldn't I expect them to make good on their guarantee? Ethics aside (for the moment) I mean isn't that part of what I paid for?

 

Aside from his specific better knowledge, isn't it the same situation here? He bought a presumably real coin, sent it to a TPG for verification and they verified it. Didn't he buy the same service I did?

 

These are honest questions, since has always been my assumption of the major TPG services (aside from the reality of the success of the buy-back guarantee).

[MarkFeld]

Mark,

 

Shouldn't PCGS, NGC or any other TPG's guarantee apply equally to all submitters?

 

If I send them a raw 1924 Saint Gaudens that I bought for slightly over melt and they slab it, then a year later I try to sell it and it turns out to be fake -- shouldn't I expect them to make good on their guarantee? Ethics aside (for the moment) I mean isn't that part of what I paid for?

 

Aside from his specific better knowledge, isn't it the same situation here? He bought a presumably real coin, sent it to a TPG for verification and they verified it. Didn't he buy the same service I did?

 

These are honest questions, since has always been my assumption of the major TPG services (aside from the reality of the success of the buy-back guarantee).

I don't doubt that my view is in the minority and that it might be flat out wrong.

 

But my feeling is that the guarantee of authenticity is designed to protect buyers of certified coins, who would be damaged if they bought a counterfeit, as genuine. Why should that guarantee apply to a person who bought an uncertified counterfeit coin and who has already been damaged, through no fault of the grading company? Why should he be enriched or bailed out of his mistake due to an error by a grading company?

[Schatzy]

Mark,

 

What do you think about this situation?

 

Lets say I buy a raw coin from XYZ Coins and they guarantee that it is real and will grade at PCGS or NGC. So I buy the coin and in fact it grades at NGC or PCGS. I keep the coin in my collection for let say 10 years and I send it in for reholdering service before I sell it and they determine that the coin is fake after further examination. Let also say that XYZ Coins is no longer in business.

 

Do you still think no harm was done?

Do you think the submitter should get FMV for the coin?

 

[jackson64]

if you bought a coin and are pretty sure it is fake, why not send it back to the seller?

 

if you bought a coin and are pretty sure it is fake, why send it to a TPG for authentication when you won't agree with their assessment if it differs from yours?

 

I don't understand why you submitted the coin and honestly think, at most, a return of grading fees is the TPG's liability..

 

Schatzy, if a TPG determines later that a coin that was already holdered/encapsulated/graded was fake, I believe they should ( and do according to policy) reimburse for the forged coin at fair market value...I believe this is appropriate..after all, why else would we be paying for their "expert" opinion?

[jpolz]

[font:Georgia]

Actually Mark it looks like you're right and I'm wrong. I went back and read the PCGS Guarantee http://www.pcgs.com/guarantee.chtml

 

[font:Verdana]"PCGS guarantees that all coins submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with the PCGS grading standards and under the procedures of PCGS."[/font]

The PCGS guarantee applies to all coins submitted, so both the original submitter & subsequent buyers are covered. Theoretically.

 

 

[font:Verdana]"In the event the purchaser of a PCGS graded coin believes that the coin has been overgraded with respect to such standards and procedures, or is non-authentic, he may submit such coin to PCGS through the PCGS "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures and PCGS will re-examine coin to determine the coin's grade and authenticity.

 

If the grade determined under such "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures is lower than the grade originally assigned to the coin, or if the coin is found to be misattributed, non-authentic, PCGS shall pay ... "[/font]

Here, the buyback guarantee only applies to the purchaser of the already-PCGS graded coin, not the original submitter (unless there's something on the submission form that states otherwise).

 

It would be interesting to know how tightly PCGS would stick to that literal reading of their guarantee, since the first part is pretty meaningless without the buyback. However given the pushback I've heard of getting TPG's to come through in ordinary buyer scenarios

 

 

 

 

[/font]

[MarkFeld]

Mark,

 

What do you think about this situation?

 

Lets say I buy a raw coin from XYZ Coins and they guarantee that it is real and will grade at PCGS or NGC. So I buy the coin and in fact it grades at NGC or PCGS. I keep the coin in my collection for let say 10 years and I send it in for reholdering service before I sell it and they determine that the coin is fake after further examination. Let also say that XYZ Coins is no longer in business.

 

Do you still think no harm was done?

Do you think the submitter should get FMV for the coin?

In that case, there is harm done, as you relied upon their guarantee of authenticity when you bought the coin. And you should be reimbursed by the grading company. But, that is different than if you had already bought a counterfeit without relying on the grading company.

[PerryHall]

Mark,

 

What do you think about this situation?

 

Lets say I buy a raw coin from XYZ Coins and they guarantee that it is real and will grade at PCGS or NGC. So I buy the coin and in fact it grades at NGC or PCGS. I keep the coin in my collection for let say 10 years and I send it in for reholdering service before I sell it and they determine that the coin is fake after further examination. Let also say that XYZ Coins is no longer in business.

 

Do you still think no harm was done?

Do you think the submitter should get FMV for the coin?

 

When you send a coin in for reholdering, I doubt their graders/authenticators even see your coin.

[MarkFeld]

Mark,

 

What do you think about this situation?

 

Lets say I buy a raw coin from XYZ Coins and they guarantee that it is real and will grade at PCGS or NGC. So I buy the coin and in fact it grades at NGC or PCGS. I keep the coin in my collection for let say 10 years and I send it in for reholdering service before I sell it and they determine that the coin is fake after further examination. Let also say that XYZ Coins is no longer in business.

 

Do you still think no harm was done?

Do you think the submitter should get FMV for the coin?

 

When you send a coin in for reholdering, I doubt their graders/authenticators even see your coin.

With so many counterfeit coins in counterfeit holders floating around, I'm guessing that graders are more likely to view coins submitted for re-holdering. Either way, the hypothetical raised an important issue.

[gmarguli]

To address everyone in one post.

 

That depends on whether they banned you from their forum for life or not, don't you think?

 

Yeah, PCGS banned me from their forums, but they've taken me out to lunch multiple times when I go there to drop off submissions, so it's even. And I never said it was PCGS that slabbed this coin.

 

Do you think they would admit it was a counterfiet if it was recently graded?

 

Yes. I think there would be no problem with them admitting that the coin is fake if their main authenticator looked at it and agreed.

 

Given the wording of your (hypothetical) situation, I would tend to think you knew something the TPG didn't know about the coin. You believe it's a fake, send it in, and after submission you still believe it's a fake.

 

I'm thinking you pulled a fast one on the TPG, but I'm not the TPG, so I won't answer for them

 

The only thing I knew about the coin was that it was extremely likely fake. I didn't think the TPG would slab it and I was hoping they would not.

 

 

He knew it wasn't genuine, and for some reason still sent it in.

 

Sent it in to get expert confirmation that the coin was fake so there would be no debate on the coin.

 

 

Under the specific circumstances described, I don't think they should pay you anything other than the grading fees. You've suffered no loss, and I think that is, or should be the determining factor.

 

But I did suffer a loss. I presumably suffered the loss of the return privilege being voided. The TPG stamped this coin with the term authentic and the return privilege to the seller is now gone. If the coin is fake, then why should I be out the money in this situation? And just so everyone knows, I'm not worried about the money in this case as it wasn't much. I'm more interested in the debate.

 

 

if you bought a coin and are pretty sure it is fake, why not send it back to the seller?

 

if you bought a coin and are pretty sure it is fake, why send it to a TPG for authentication when you won't agree with their assessment if it differs from yours?

 

Not necessarily in this situation, but in general a seller can say the coin is real and all you have is a difference of opinion. Now if a TPG says it is counterfeit, it's a little harder to argue with that.

 

As a seller, I can recall 3 times over the last couple of years were I sold a raw coin and the buyer questioned its authenticity. I asked the buyers to submit the coins to a TPG to confirm. (All came back genuine).

 

 

Here, the buyback guarantee only applies to the purchaser of the already-PCGS graded coin, not the original submitter (unless there's something on the submission form that states otherwise).

 

1) I never said it was PCGS.

 

2) I suspect that this wording is not interpreted 100% literally. If it were then all I'd have to do is sell it to a friend and have him submit it. A TPG wants these coins off the market and isn't going to play word games.

 

BTW, unrelated to this situation, but I submitted some coins to a PCGS and when they came back they were horribly spotted. I gave them right back to them and they cut me a check. Their grade guarantee refers to buyers also.

[MarkFeld]

But I did suffer a loss. I presumably suffered the loss of the return privilege being voided. The TPG stamped this coin with the term authentic and the return privilege to the seller is now gone. If the coin is fake, then why should I be out the money in this situation? And just so everyone knows, I'm not worried about the money in this case as it wasn't much. I'm more interested in the debate.

 

If you bought the coin based on the grading company's having authenticated the coin, that would cause me to change my answer.

[Schatzy]

 

When you send a coin in for reholdering, I doubt their graders/authenticators even see your coin.

 

People got coin down-graded when all they wanted was the coins re-holdered.

 

MS68 to MS66 Link