Do coin business leaders take collectors for granted?

[RWB]

The comment recently posted by a hobby business leader continues to bother me. The remarks seem to suggest a callousness and failure to understand the people on whom the business depends. Some other prominent hobby people have commented similarly, although evidently without recognizing the scope of their comments or that “private“ remarks made on the bourse floor are not private.

 

While there are “all kinds” in any hobby, coin collecting seems to have more than its fair share of persons determined to drive away hobbyists.

 

I’d appreciate the good readers’ thoughts – am I off base?

 

[IGWT]

What comment?

[jtryka]

I don't know the specific comment, but in my 30 or so years of experience, I would have to say you are correct. Whether it be callous remarks, poor attitude at shows and shops, or just a general ambivalence, it seems to me that those who make their business out of coins tend to have the least respect for those who make their business possible. There are always exceptions to make the rule, but it seems to be a rule nonetheless.

[gbsten]

Apparently catering to the advertisers is more profitable than what built your business.

[WoodenJefferson]

I tell you what, when it appears your constantly treading on thin ice and worry that your next step might be your last, it curtails your independence of thought and expression.

 

Sure, the leader can express his opinion, but to me, that opinion should not contain consequences for which they have no control over.

 

What ever happen to embracing those who maintain your business?

[rons]

When I attended the CSNS show this spring I was astounded by the lacksadasical attitude displayed by many dealers. I stood in front of a case for 5 minutes before I was even acknowledged as existing at one dealers spot. At another my inquiry as to price on a raw morgan and a raw kennedy proof was met with red book quotes and no give and take rather a take or leave it attitude so I left it. It seemed that conversations between neighbors was more important than someone with money to spend. Many of these conversations were not of a professional manner or even in a positive vein. As this was my first big show I can't tell you how disappointed and disgusted I was. The folks from the mint on the other hand were outstanding in their attitudes and their interactions with the crowd. Kudos to them and shame on the dealers who ignore or even worse mock folks who venture into their zone.

[DC Dawg]

The comment recently posted by a hobby business leader continues to bother me. The remarks seem to suggest a callousness and failure to understand the people on whom the business depends.

I think it would help if you pointed to the comment that bothers you.

 

Scott

[physics-fan3.14]

The comment recently posted by a hobby business leader continues to bother me. The remarks seem to suggest a callousness and failure to understand the people on whom the business depends.

I think it would help if you pointed to the comment that bothers you.

 

Scott

 

Scott, I believe he is referring to this thread: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3253763#Post3253763

 

 

[RWB]

“Anyone blocking ads will be removed from the board. “

 

DonWillis

President, PCGS

Friday June 19, 2009 11:19 AM

[RareSov]

Maybe they are pulling $1000 a month from banner ads

 

People get obsessed with their empire and any chance of it diminishing..

[WoodenJefferson]

 

People get obsessed with their empire and any chance of it diminishing..

 

 

I know Fred G. Sanford was very protective of his empire.

[World Colonial]

I do not buy from local dealers in person and rarely attend shows, but its my opinion that coin dealers show above average indifference to their customers or potential customers than small business owners in other areas. (I've run into indifference there too, just less.)

 

There are two reasons that come to mind for this attitude.

 

The first one is that the typical retail coin buyer is small fry and they consider it a waste of their time to bother dealing with them. If many or most dealers at shows are not even catering to the retail buyer but are there to buy and sell from each other for their better clients away from the show as I have heard on this forum, that would probably account for their attitude though its still a terrible business practice.

 

For a bit, I tried using one specialist in Latin America coinage to bid for me at auctions. At the beginning he made an effort because I won 9 lots at one of the Heritage auctions totalling about $4,000 which was worth $200 to him with the 5% commission. But I do not buy that much at one time normally (its the most I've ever spent at one time) and after that, I'd ask him to bid on a lot or two and when I was not the high bidder, I had no idea whether he even bid or not. The final straw for me was when I asked him to bid on a really difficult coin I wanted (a 1719 Spain Cuenca raw uncirculated 1/2 Real in a Heritage auction) and my maximum was above the winning bid. I did not win it and he never contacted me. Good luck ever finding that coin again. I was completely disgusted. I absolutely guarantee you he does not treat his big spenders like that and neither do most or all other dealers. (In his case, he told me that a buyer of an 1847 NGC MS-64 Ecuador 2 Real for $1800 spent about $100,000 a year.)

 

The second reason is that maybe they just think that if they annoy someone that they can sell the coins to someone else. This is partly true in at least some cases because coins sell themselves. Its not like someone selling widgets (and this is true even though I consider most coins to be common or extremely common) because the supply for most coins is typically relatively (though not absolutely) low at any given point in time, especially when compared to other retail channels where it can expand to meet demand.

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Excellent reply World Colonial...makes lots of sense.

[EZ_E]

I imagine that the typical dealer has as much concern for the collector as big government has for its tax payers.

 

I've been blown off from a few prominent dealers who post on these boards, even.

 

Mark Feld is always the standard that I desire from a dealer.

[DC Dawg]

Over the course of the past few years, PCGS has held an almost militant view on the moderation of the forums they host. Since I have been registered here, PCGS has banned long time registered users for speaking out against their practices. Others were banned for speaking out about those who were banned. There is even some anecdotal evidence of some being banned for speaking out over here.

 

There have been other postings by David Hall and Ron Guth scolding their forum users on various aspects of their online behavior. They have locked and removed threads they expressed objections to. PCGS has been accused of heavy handed moderation of their forums.

 

I think this is the first time we have heard from Don Willis--probably because he took over for Hall last October and there have been no incidents since his arrival Just because Willis is running PCGS it does not mean that their corporate attitude has changed.

 

PCGS has its fans--some of them very are very ardent fans. For whatever reason, these fans continue to think that PCGS is better than other services will continue to support them. This is just another "bump in the road," like the purge of members last year. Feathers will be ruffled, but they will come back. PCGS knows this and does not worry about how they look.

 

PCGS will change only when their actions begin to negatively effect their bottom line. Therefore, if you don't like the way they do things, don't use their forums or services. If enough people vote with their feet and pocketbook, they will change. Until then, there is nothing that can be done by any one person.

 

Scott

[IGWT]

Business leaders, yes. Hobby leaders, no.

[James_OldeTowne]

In general, I do agree that dealers tend to take collectors for granted. The worst offenders, in my somewhat worthless opinion, are those who seem to make most of their business in dealer-to-dealer business. Those who truly cater to collectors seem to understand the importance of their customers.

[gmarguli]

Maybe they are pulling $1000 a month from banner ads

 

You greatly underestimate the revenue of these ads. One of the ad packages they offer runs $1000 alone. They have several different options for advertising and it appears that several dealers take advantage of this service. I'm sure they're not getting rich off it, but I would guess it brings in many multiples of your estimate.

 

Advertisers also have the option to pay per click on the ad. Therefore, people blocking ads are not going to create any revenue for PCGS.

 

At a time when their submissions across the board are plummeting, you can understand them worrying about every cent they make.

[MikeKing]

I don't know the specific comment, but in my 30 or so years of experience, I would have to say you are correct. Whether it be callous remarks, poor attitude at shows and shops, or just a general ambivalence, it seems to me that those who make their business out of coins tend to have the least respect for those who make their business possible. There are always exceptions to make the rule, but it seems to be a rule nonetheless.

 

ditto

[Tradedollarnut]

Personally, I prefer not to be greeted immediately upon approaching a dealer's table at a show. My preference is silence while I look, but then a quick hello/help if I either address him/her or have a question.

[michael]

The comment recently posted by a hobby business leader continues to bother me. The remarks seem to suggest a callousness and failure to understand the people on whom the business depends. Some other prominent hobby people have commented similarly, although evidently without recognizing the scope of their comments or that “private“ remarks made on the bourse floor are not private.

 

While there are “all kinds” in any hobby, coin collecting seems to have more than its fair share of persons determined to drive away hobbyists.

 

I’d appreciate the good readers’ thoughts – am I off base?

 

pcgs DOES take collectors for granted--WELL THE FEW PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE DECISIONS

[EZ_E]

Personally, I prefer not to be greeted immediately upon approaching a dealer's table at a show. My preference is silence while I look, but then a quick hello/help if I either address him/her or have a question.

 

Yeah, but you're not the typical guy. No denying it, Bruce.

 

It's like the new employee at a company who is always 10-15 minutes late coming in everyday. He's called into the boss' office one morning. Exasperated the boss says, "You know, I'm very pleased with your work performance and level of knowledge but what am I going to do about your continued tardiness. As retired military, I'd expect more out of you. What would they say if you came in late while active duty?"

 

"Simple, they'd just say, 'Good morning, general'."

 

 

[leeg]

I didn't appreciate it at all. Way over the top in my opinion. Most will say this is an overreaction, but I canceled my ability to post on that forum and also canceled my Collectors Club Membership and am getting a refund for the months I have left on that CC membership. I've also decided not to purchase any more PCGS coins. I'm a very small fish in this big ocean but we all have stands that we take in our lives for various reasons and this is one I'm taking ownership of.

[BillJones]

In general, I do agree that dealers tend to take collectors for granted. The worst offenders, in my somewhat worthless opinion, are those who seem to make most of their business in dealer-to-dealer business. Those who truly cater to collectors seem to understand the importance of their customers.

 

Most wholesale dealers don't have the time or patience to fool with retail customers. They don’t want to take the time to explain things to them, and they definitely don’t want to deal with things like returns, want lists and other services that good retail dealers provide. I can tell you from personal experience that want list work can very profitable and rewarding, but only small number of retail dealers bother with it.

 

Some wholesale dealers get to be too big for their britches. I had one wholesaler tell me at the Baltimore show that my purchase of $5,500 “was not large enough to be worth his time.” I took the hint and did not "bother" him again. Subsequently I noticed that his booth at the major shows went from multi table end units to a small booth at the center of a row. I also noted that his employees dwindled from five to six guys to just himself and that he seemed to spend most of his staring into space with no customers “bothering” him. A business person who might look rich and powerful can really get cut down size when their customer base disappears.

 

In defense of the wholesalers, some collectors are real jerks. They expect to get all the services of retail dealer from wholesaler, and yet they expect to pay the same low prices. They also do stupid stuff like make excessive or poorly informed counteroffers. My philosophy is to avoid making counteroffers unless we are very close, and the amount offered is within the limits of the market. Asking what a dealer needs after noting a price on the piece is okay, but whining about the price or arguing about it is counterproductive.

 

Also, after you buy something and then see the same item offered elsewhere for less money, tough luck! Don’t go back to the dealer asking for a refund or using the lower price as leverage. Just chalk it up to poor timing, and perhaps as a basis for changing your buying strategies.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I was struck by an example of callousness towards collectors last year when I inquired about a particular better date, double eagle that was graded AU55 and was in a PCGS/NGC holder (I won't say which holder) for auction. My inquiry was about the coin being so badly puttied that the putty job was cracking on the surface of the coin and was faded to a different gold color. The auctioneer was/is a large national auction house that has a large following with collectors.

 

The blase response from the Director of that company's auction department was: 'that coin is puttied and has some other problems, I would not advise buying it". The remark was candid and I appreciated the candor. However the auction company continued to represent the coin as choice AU55 and sold it at auction with no qualms about the fact that the coin was badly doctored and not worth nearly choice AU money! The puttied coin sold for AU money BTW.

 

How could this company represent this coin in a catalog and in person for legitimate sale knowing it was spurious? Rhetorical question, I know, they did it in a heartbeat without the faintest regard for their customers who bid and paid 20% commission to buy this coin.

 

This is just one example. Many show dealers go just to conduct trade with other dealers, not to sell to collectors. These dealers can hardly restrain their contempt for collectors. If you have any doubts, just ask them!

[Houston Investor]

There are different types of dealers. Some obviously more encouraging of customer interaction than others. A dealer's time is limited when there is a lot of traffic in the shop or at the table. He has to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak and do it quickly so the real deals do not slip away. A wholesaler is not going to debate about price - you either buy the piece or pass. You know the saying - "money talks and BS walks." Nobody likes a Cheap A and behaving like one with a wholesaler is not only ignorant, but stupid.

 

I recently shared a table at a show with a major wholesaler. I bought thousands of dollars of material from him myself, some of which I was able to retail to customers at the show for good money (despite the wholesaler at my table). A case in point were a couple of GBR Britannia gold sets I bought around melt from him convinced I would be taking them home (who would buy this?) then a guy came up and bought them from me at a retail price I am sure would have come down the longer I held the coins. But this is whats so thrilling about the bourse! The presence of the wholesaler brought a lot of people to the table. I mean this guy had dealers coming to him to do big ticket transactions so his time was limited. He did take the time to buy a sizable collection (making an offer for each coin) of circ, low end material (mostly junk coins) from a young guy around 18 who then took the money and bought a nice Saint from him. Others had tried to rip the kid for a song. A sharp kid trading up coming into the bourse with a plan. The kid was smart enough to realize he was getting fair prices for his material from a knowledeable player and would be able to accomplish his mission.

 

On an intersting note a guy bought a $20 Saint in PCGS 64 for $100 more two tables over than what the wholesaler was selling his pieces for. He realized this when he came up to our table, then backtracked to the original dealer and tried to get his money back - that dealer said "too bad so sad, all sight seen transactions are final" So study your price guide or shop around before you jump!

[Oldtrader3]

Arizona, I respectfully disagree regarding a small portion of your post. There are many dealers who act like crazed attack dogs if you ask a simple question about the condition and/or price of a coin. I do not at all care for the "I won't waste my time with you answering your boring, stupid, simple question about condition. Here is the price, take it or leave it" attitude. The: "I don't have time for you even though this is a $2000 coin" "Now, make a split second decision or I will withdrawl my price", confrontational style almost always encourages me to walk away quickly and add him to my list of dealers that I will never approach again. .

[RWB]

I started this thread with the hope that some of the hobby’s business-end “movers, shakers, honchos, big wigs, 800-lb gorillas, mavens” and assorted other business people would read and take to heart comments by experienced collectors. That was probably too idealistic – the ones who “should” likely “won’t.”

 

Coin-business people are often the newcomer’s earliest contact with the hobby. That is the best, and often only, chance to create a positive impression of coin collecting. When coin-businesses project an attitude of integrity, honesty, veracity and patience the “newby” is more likely to find the hobby appealing.

 

With millions of people casually collecting state quarters and other circulating novelties, the typical coin show bourse is still the same-old-same-old. So many dealers exhibit callous, impatient and careless attitudes that I can’t blame new potential collectors when they switch to beanie babies or ceramic insulators.

 

[i spent about ½ hour at the recent Baltimore show. As I was leaving I saw the perfect turn-off to coin collecting. A teen approached a dealer’s table with a folder of state quarters, and asked what they were worth. The dealer glanced at the cover and said “Junk, Nothin’” and turned away. The teen walked out, his hopes clearly deflated. Is this how “first contact” is handled in our hobby? ]

 

...getting off the soap box....

[BillJones]

[i spent about ½ hour at the recent Baltimore show. As I was leaving I saw the perfect turn-off to coin collecting. A teen approached a dealer’s table with a folder of state quarters, and asked what they were worth. The dealer glanced at the cover and said “Junk, Nothin’” and turned away. The teen walked out, his hopes clearly deflated. Is this how “first contact” is handled in our hobby? ]

 

As a one time dealer who was on the other side of the case, it gets hard to answer some of these questions. Yes, calling the material "junk, Nothin" is too harsh, but at the same time telling him that he's really got something is wrong too.

 

My diplomatic response would be to tell him that the coins in the album were very common and not worth much of anything over face value. I could further explain that coins bring collector prices because they are scarce and in demand. State Quarters have certainly been in demand, but with mintages reaching the billion mark and an many millions saved, the supply is too large to give them very much collector value.

[DC Dawg]

With millions of people casually collecting state quarters and other circulating novelties, the typical coin show bourse is still the same-old-same-old. So many dealers exhibit callous, impatient and careless attitudes that I can’t blame new potential collectors when they switch to beanie babies or ceramic insulators.

 

[i spent about ½ hour at the recent Baltimore show. As I was leaving I saw the perfect turn-off to coin collecting. A teen approached a dealer’s table with a folder of state quarters, and asked what they were worth. The dealer glanced at the cover and said “Junk, Nothin’” and turned away. The teen walked out, his hopes clearly deflated. Is this how “first contact” is handled in our hobby? ]

 

...getting off the soap box....

These paragraphs represent two problems. Your experience at Baltimore shows that there are all types and it is difficult to know which type you meet. For as many ogres you meet I can show you a few nicer dealers who would answer nicely to the teen.

 

The other problem is that this is a business. Dealers on the bourse floor are trying to earn a living. They earn that living by selling what they think their buyers want. If it all looks the same it is because they are showing what is selling. If you are not interested in what they are selling, someone is and they would rather talk with those who are willing to buy the merchandise. Even though we think of it as a hobby, it's the dealer's livelihood.

 

I wonder if the concept of a "numismatic ambassador" would work. The Numismatic Ambassador would join a small (2-6) group of novice collectors of any age and walk around the bourse floor with them. The Numismatic Ambassador would be there as a show mentor to help answer questions, approach dealers, explain what is happening, and whatever else comes up. They would help bridge the gap between the newbies and well seasoned.

 

It's just a thought.

 

Scott