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Mixed Registry Sets

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This has probably been covered a zillion times but not by me.

 

I have a NGC SAE Registry set, a 100% NGC SAE Registry set. There is a person who has a mixed set with the exact same scores/grades/year but he is rated higher than me. Shouldn't a pure NGC set be rated higher than a mixed NGC/PCGS one????

 

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Why? Do you have a holder bias? 893naughty-thumb.gif

 

The premise of the NGC Registry is that PCGS and NGC coins are equal. Sometimes this is true in the marketplace, sometimes it isn't. But that's the assumption for the Registry. Please, let's not get into who has what holder....it's the coins themselves that are of utmost importance! foreheadslap.gif

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I was going to start a new thread about this but since you brought it up smile.gif.

 

I was really wondering again why everyone thinks they should pay more money for a coin in an pcgs holder.

and not just more but astronomical amounts more.

 

today I recieved the new coin world and angel dee had some really expensive coins that made me wonder were they got there pricing. now lets not just give me greif for collecting NGC coins or giving pcgs coins a wuppin.

 

I'm just giving my observations.

 

I bought my 1934 lincoln in ms68red for about 3800$

the coin is in an ngc holder and is pop 2 and very nice.

(check it out in my reg set) the angle dee coin in coin world was pop 6/0 and 12000$ that's right you read it right . 12000$ and a 1940 pop 4 coin is 14000$.

 

so my question ( as always) why pay a premium for the pcgs slab. there will be a time not too far off were people are going to ketch on that the holder is only a guide to the coin in it.

 

 

rob. just my opinion.

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In my experience, PCGS grades 1/4 - 1/2 point tighter than NGC. That's not to say that either is right or wrong with how they grade, just that they grade to slightly different standards. As long as they grade accurately to their standard and the standard is accepted by the marketplace, then that is all a collector can ask of the grading company.

 

When it comes to pricing, it should be all about the coin. There are overgrades, undergrades and accurate grades in both company's holders. One has to evaluate the quality of the coin vs the price asked and decide if it's right for you and you alone. Allowing sweeping generalizations that work on a series wide basis to taint one's view on an individual coin basis just isn't right.

 

In some instances, a strong premium for a PCGS coin is warranted. For a while, PCGS was way too tight [everyone was complaining that they weren't grading properly] and there are some super coins in their holders. There are some super coins in NGC holders as well. But each has to be decided on a case by case basis - throw out the averages.

 

IMO, paying more than a 2-3 multiple of an undergrade is many times a dangerous thing financially. Because of a restricted supply, there are instances of 100 times the undergrade being paid for PCGS holders - where the pops of the undergrade is quite high. That seems foolish to me. In many of those instances, an NGC graded coin of the higher grade is available at a significant discount. If the coin is of appropriate quality, that seems like a better value to me....

 

 

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TDN,

You're right on. thumbsup2.gif To me it's all about the coin. My coins are in the $100-500 range, so the price difference is virtually insignificant. In my opinion, I would stick with the cheaper NGC coins. If you think a coin graded-X is just as nice as a PCGSatan coin of the same grade then you're only helping yourself, no? And we all know NGC is a real item when it comes to TPGs.

 

One thing that irks me though, is if NGC is the official TPG of the ANA shouldn't they be on par with PCGS? Isn't that title saying something. confused-smiley-013.gif

 

Remember too, overly conservative coin grading isn't necessarily accurate coin grading. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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well TDN, the chances of me comparing my sets to yours would be an disadvantage., so how about I just keep the thread going.").

 

 

I'm sorry TDN. but I don't agree that there should be a premium for a coin 1/4 to 1/2 a grade better.

lets get it strait.

they should just be acurate in any holder.

 

ok some don't. are me and you going to send coins to ACG?

 

HECK KNOW.

are we going to send coins to NGC well heck yes we are.]

 

 

we're not going to pay the higher price if we don't have to.

no

!!!! so some one tell me why I SHOULD SEND COINS TO PCGS.

 

 

 

well that was a stupid question. your going to feed there corporate monster because there coins give you more money for the same grade.

 

think about this, nows the time to buy other grading company's coins . they also will cross at the higher grades.

 

not all but some.make some money because you believe in NGC.

ROB, confused.gifsign-rantpost.gif

 

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Well this is actually a more interesting thread than I thought it would be. First I am somewhat surprised that someone with a mixed set would score higher than a pure NGC set. Was the score higher or merely the ranking? If it was just the ranking then no big deal, they could have used registration date or even the letter of the set name to determine the order. If the scores are indeed different then there is indeed a problem.

 

As for the premium for PCGS slabs, this is an age old debate, but the premium for PCGS slabs I believe is directly proportional to the level of hype in the market. And what I mean by that is the level of "rarity" that is created by those selling the market, and right now, that rarity is grade rarity. There is nothing rare about a 1934 cent, or a 1940 cent. Some would argue there is inherant rarity in the single best 1934 or 1940 cent in existence. While this may be true, the value of such a "rarity" is purely dependent on the number of people who buy into such definitions of rarity. Right now, that number is high, especially with moderns in the registry craze. For many other classic series, it doesn't make much difference, as perhaps less than a handful of people are actually concerned with top grade coins, but far more people are happy with the undergrades. Take Saints for instance. In many cases, there are so few coins extant that the spread between several grades is almost negligible. There are still premiums for top grades, but they are often less than 100% of the undergrade. For example (and using the PCGS price guide for convenience, and yes I know it's not accurate, but will do for this example) the 1929 Saint goes from $9100 in MS-60 to $41000 in MS-65 (the top grade) a 350% premuim, but compared to an MS-64 at $21000, the spread is 95%. The reason these spreads are thin is that many collectors (actually there are relatively few of us) would be happy with a nice AU or low unc example. As a side effect of these thinner spreads, the difference in price between NGC and PCGS is negligible, and I would argue is non-existent for identical coins. The truth is, those of us collecting Saints really do buy the coin and not the holder. And in cases where there is a discrepancy, we pounce on the difference! I have a nice 1913-D in a PCGS AU-58 holder that could easily grade AU-62, but the seller was a PCGS seller and not a Saint seller, so he only asked AU money for it, and in a hearbeat I walked away with the coin at something like $425. If I were to sell it today I have confidence I could get MS-62 money for the coin, even in the AU holder. Now is this because it was graded by PCGS? No, actually it's because it was probably undergraded by PCGS! There have been other cases where I have bought NGC coins at a discount to comparable PCGS coins that were offered by people more familiar with slabs than with Saints, and I was always happy to take the discount. Sorrry for the sign-rantpost.gif but I just forgot what I was talking about. popcorn.gif

 

Finally, $12000 for a 1940 Lincoln Cent?!?!?!?!? 893whatthe.gif893whatthe.gif893whatthe.gif Can't you buy an unc bag of 1940 cents for that kind of money??? Man, I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of grandeaur! foreheadslap.gifforeheadslap.gifforeheadslap.gif

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i am new here and have just gotten back into coins again after a few years of other hobbies.

i have many coins, but have just gotten into buying slabbed Franklins and Kennedy's.

this thread seemed to lean toward one of my newbie questions, so here it is.

or the coins i have in slabs worth less whem they reside in PCI or SEGS holders?

i have mostly high grade CAM and DCAM coins, and would like to know if i should be shying away from certain grading companies, and whether or not i shopuld be cracking some of these out to be regraded.

i really tend to shop by the eye appeal of the coins themselves, but do not want to somehow devalue my sets by being ignorant to this fact.

thank you in advance for your time and knowledge.

after only being here for a few days, the quality of the know;edge stored here is very impressive.

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I think TDN is right. NGC premise of both services being equal,but it is a one way street.PCGS is the one with the holder bias. 893frustrated.gifThere are a lot of Registry sets you can't receive a # 1 ranking without combining the two services. I would never send an NGC graded coin to PCGS for re-grading just so I could enter it into their Registry.The market place is something else.PCGS graded coins do (in some cases) sell for more than NGC for the same coin.Because of this I have really made some good purchases of NGC coins. grin.gifThe part of the country where I live confused-smiley-013.gif there is not alot of dealers and or coin shops;so I have to put my trust in the holder and the dealer,auction ect.I believe the coin is the most important thing when buying,but often it's not an option for me.Everyone have a Happy New Year. acclaim.gif

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I'm sorry TDN. but I don't agree that there should be a premium for a coin 1/4 to 1/2 a grade better.

 

I will always pay a premium - sometimes a really really significant one - for that 1/4-1/2 point. Just because here and now the coin in question grades 64.5 or 64.75 doesn't mean that tomorrow, or next year, or in 5 years, that it doesn't grade 65.0! Then the premium paid now looks like a bargain.

 

For instance: I'll relate the story of my favorite coin - the Vermeule 1873-CC trade dollar. Prior to this coin coming on the market in the Stacks' sale of the Vermeule collection, I owned a PCGS MS64 that was kind of drab. Not a mistake, mind you, since the 73-CC usually looks like garbage [coins with luster are quite uncommon]. I paid $50k for that coin... a bit of a stretch over the $35k an NGC MS64 cost, but the PCGS coin was a quarter point or so nicer than the NGC one I had. Then the Vermeule coin came up for auction and we graded it as a 65-. That is to say it was a lock 65 for the date, but for a date that doesn't come looking nice it was iffy if the coin would get its deserved grade [cross thread alert - market grading!]. So it was at least a half point higher than the PCGS 64 that I had. We purchased the coin for about $75k. $25k premium for half a point? Ouch. Was I worried when it graded 64 the first time thru - you bet! Was it a bargain when eventually it got its deserved grade of full gem? Absolutely!

 

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this thread seemed to lean toward one of my newbie questions, so here it is.

or the coins i have in slabs worth less whem they reside in PCI or SEGS holders?

i have mostly high grade CAM and DCAM coins, and would like to know if i should be shying away from certain grading companies, and whether or not i shopuld be cracking some of these out to be regraded.

 

I am not as familiar with the intricacies of Kennedys as all mine are in a Whitman folder, but I do have a set of slabbed Franklin business strikes. My sense is that most collectors view PCI and SEGS as second tier grading companies that in some cases may grade looser than PCGS or NCG. That said, some collectors my be willing to buy a SEGS/PCI MS-68 for the same cost as a PCGS MS-66 or MS-67. There is nothing wrong with the coins, as long as you are comfortable with your grading abilities and can identify coins in other slabs that are accurately graded. My personal collection of Franklins is all in NGC, PCGS and ICG slabs, but I am not going for the ultra high grade coins, mine are only MS-63 or better, and I am confident that all the services can accurately pick out an MS-63! Keep in mind, there is nothing wrong with these coins, it's just that you will likely receive less money when you sell them, but if you are like me and just happy to hold the coins, then it probably doesn't matter.

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The sets should be equal, whether they are 100% of either service, or mixed. Could be that there was some kind of glitch on one of them with the math. Couldn't tell which sets you were referring to though, because there's so many SAE sets that are 100% complete.

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My own sense on this issue is that, out of my 300+ NGC/PCGS slabbed coins, I have more under graded coins in PCGS holders than in NGC holders. No one will ever prove it but, IMHO, PCGS was under grading most "collector" priced coins for years. I also feel that PCGS was favoring grades for important customers. However, this all has been discussed at some length here.

 

Since Market Grading fluctuates somewhat over time, I will wait until I am ready to sell before I make a determination on whether to resubmit many of the slabbed coins that I feel are under graded. Particularly, with PCGS graded Saints, I do not find PCGS grading to be very consistant (as Jeff mentioned) on either end!

 

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Prices for coins through Angel Dees have been mentioned and I can tell you that last year I bought a simply superb 1910-S MS65RD Lincoln from Andy and paid nearly two times Greysheet for the coin because it was so nice. This amounted to over $200 for the premium above sheet. The coin is in an NGC holder and is worth every dollar I paid for it. By the way, I don't even buy MS Lincolns and certainly not RD Lincolns! I bought this one because of just how nice it really was.

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Rehit, as jt said earlier, there will almost without a doubt be a loss on the coin(s) you own in a PCI, ACG, NTC or a SGS [P.A.N.S] holder come time to sell it (them). I state this with the reservation that this is only because these TPGs do not grade very consistently or accurately across the board. And lots of folks will add that ICG could be included in the list too [P.A.I.N.S]. But then again, if you like the coin, know how to grade it and are sure the TPG got it right, it won't make a difference IF YOU INTEND TO KEEP IT. It is not a matter of whether they are worth less or worthless in the other slabs if this is the case. If you like the coins as they are, that is what matters.

 

When I first started buying coins, I made many mis-purchases of coins in various holders. What PCGS and NGC consider a MS65 might get a grade of MS66/67/68 from any of the others. Full Step Jeffs will NOT be FS, Full Bell Lines will NOT be FBL, etc. You really have to know the coins you want to collect and how they are graded before you can accurately make purchases to keep and/or re-sell. As you mention proofs, it is basically the same thing. A cameo or dcam in a PAINS holder would not be a true cam or dcam, acording to the standards of PCGS or NGC.

 

There is another TPG, ANACS, that is doing very well as of late, and getting better at consistent and accurate grading, but it is still a buyer-beware shot depending on the series you are interested in.

 

If you cracked them and submitted to PCGS or NGC, they would most likely come back at a lower grade. This is not necessarily a bad thing for you, as most buyers would have more interest in them simply because of the TPG that slabbed the coin.

The lower grade on the return still might get you your money back for the premium slab. But since you say they are high grade, then you might not want to try a cross-over. ANY drop in grade and/or cameo condition for the higher graded Frankies and Kennedys would amount to a lot of value. IMO, you would be better off keeping them as they are, ASSUMING they were over-graded to begin with. If, in your opinion, they are correctly graded, then you may wish to try.

 

The alternative is to sell them as fast as you can and re-buy them in NGC holders!

 

David

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it seems i am learning swiftly about PCI graded coins.

does this even resemble a cameo to anyone?

 

74_1.jpg

tonofbricks.gif

it is a very pretty proof coin...but there is absolutely no frost on either side... foreheadslap.gif

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Sorry, but nope...it doesn't. The bad news is that, more than likely, it would miss on two accounts: it isn't cameo, and probably isn't proof 69 either.

 

David voiced things quite well in the post just above yours containing the image of the PCI slabbed quarter.

 

Sometimes you can get lucky with coins graded by 'other' services in that the designation (CAM, DCAM, etc) are accurate - but that has proven to be true a very small percentage of the time.

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In the case of the Silver Eagle Registry where, I imagine, all coins grade out as MS69 (regardless of the holder) the coins are listed as a tie with the first registrants above those who list later.

I think a mixed set that registers after the 100% NGC set should (and is) be listed in order, or, in your case, after the mixed set.

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