• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

So, why all the hatred for...

33 posts in this topic

... the Sac dollar artistic design? I have heard all kinds of complaint about the placement of a "relatively minor" figure in American history placed on the dollar and how butt-ugly it is. I hate to admit this, but I don't get it.

 

1) Although the design is not allegorical, strictly speaking, it has an allegorical flavor to it since (a) it depicts a native American, the history for which is indisputable on U.S. coin designs, and (b) it depicts a person who was native to the land during a time of critical discovery and expansion of the newly formed United States. This is honorable and deserving of our remembrance. Most of us only embrace the European-Native American conflics in terms of our historical understandings, yet MANY Native Americans helped the new nation grow and prosper. There was a long history of friendship and discovery and i think this is represented in the endeavors of Sacagawea.

 

2) I think that the image provided on the coin is rather lovely. The sculpting is of a modern native American who, it is thought, has a look that resembles that of the actual young girl who helpd guide and translate for the Corps of Discovery.

 

3) There are Native Americans all over U.S. coins. And many were hated - e.g. the buffalo nickel. When this nickel replaced the Liberty nickel, there was all kinds of and moaning about it. Part of the complaint was to see such a figure as an Indian warrior on a coin, especially in such close chronological proximity to the western conflicts. Hell, there were still "wild Indians" "loose" in the land at the time that the nickel was issued. (And the bison did not help - an animal driven nearly to extinction and slaughtered in a wholesale effort to starve some of the midwestern tribes to death!) So now, we romanticize the buffalo nickel as if it were always a great part of American coinage - wrong.

 

So, except for the fact that the coin does not have a flattering relief, is poorly conceived of metallurgically, and serves no acceptable purpose next to the dollar bill, what is all the outrage about? I think that the depiction of Sacagawea and her son (Jean Baptiste Charbonneau) on the coin is honorable, historically meaningful, and attractive. Afterall, I also collect bust halves, and have always thought that Liberty had questionable appearance on those pieces!

 

Hoot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really have an issue with the design, except that I would prefer obverses with a much more symbolic nature, like the concepts of Liberty that we have seen in the past.

 

I like the reverse, at least, I think that I do, I can't remember seeing one in forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Part of the reason I posted this is that the coin is mentioned several times in teh "What are the 3 ugliest coin designs by the US Mint?" thread.

 

I just think it's underappreciated and the allegory and history are missed by most.

 

Hoot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, until the Mint tracks down and destroys every Special Olympics commem and SBA, the Sac will never be #1 on that list.

 

Personally, one of the most horrifying coins I've seen is the Chain cent. Blissfully, most representations are worn enough that collectors don't have to realize how ugly Liberty appears.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Butt ugly is beautifull so long as low mintage numbers are on the coins. An ugly coin can be valuable.Die cracks are ugly but when they occur in funny places the coin becomes more interesting.

 

Coolcoin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, one of the most horrifying coins I've seen is the Chain cent.

 

I love that coin. That is one coin I aspire to own in a decent condition - at the very least XF - and with a smooth planchet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll just say what I personally think about the coin.

 

1) The choice of Sacagawea rings of some politically correct choice. It seems that every day we have someone calling for a school team to change their mascot from an Indian to something less "offensive". There is an Indian backlash over their false use of heritage in order to open casinos. The choice of Sacagawea just seems to me to be something a committee in Congress would be so happy to pick. It'll satisfy the Indians and the women (can't replace good old SBA with a man).

 

Maybe all the above is wrong and that isn't how it happened, but I bet it seems like it happened this way to a lot of people.

 

2) Sacagawea? Who the hell is she again? I honestly didn't remember her from school. I'm sure I learned about a lot of one hit wonders like her in school, but I don't really care about them. I bet 80% of the people in this country have no idea who she is. Yes, I know that 50% can't find Canada on a map, but let's not get into an education debate here. smile.gif

 

3) It's ugly. She is ugly. She looks like a grinning fool carrying the devil baby. We don't even know what she looked like. She might have been 600 pounds in real life.

 

4) The reverse. Nothing like picking a portrait of a bird that looks like it hasn't eaten in a month.

 

5) The coin turns ugly..er..uglier once exposed to use. It looks like a turd after a week of use.

 

Overall a very uninspired coin that only becomes uglier with age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, except for the fact that the coin does not have a flattering relief, is poorly conceived of metallurgically, and serves no acceptable purpose next to the dollar bill, what is all the outrage about?

 

I don't think the design is nearly as ugly as that of SBA's, Barbers, Ikes, and others, and you hit all three of my objections to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe all the above is wrong and that isn't how it happened, but I bet it seems like it happened this way to a lot of people.

 

Seems that way to me. PC design for a PC nation.

 

Sacagawea? Who the hell is she again? I honestly didn't remember her from school.

 

She wasn't in my school textbook in the discussion of Lewis & Clark. My book focused on how we screwed the French through the Louisiana Purchase, and that France was a lame nation to begin with, so they deserved to get screwed.

 

The coin turns ugly..er..uglier once exposed to use. It looks like a turd after a week of use.

 

There's a break-even point in there where it tones enough to dampen Sac's portrait without the coin looking like complete . Leave it out a month, then try again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hoot...I'm guilty of slamming the coin on other threads. I do like the reverse, but the obverse holds no appeal to me. Sacajewea, while having a place in history, does not in my mind reflect any significant representation of America...I know this counters one of your premises. I guess we can quibble all day long about the artistic merit of the coin...but I guess maybe my general dislike for the coin and the rah rah attempts some folks have about forcing their use on us (by taking away the dollar bill) makes me unable to appreciate the "beauty" of the coin....

 

For the record...I don't care much for Peace dollars either...and there will be some that call me crazy for that opinion. That's the beauty of the hobby...we can all find what we like... wink.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if the coin had a more dish-like higher relief the design could have been rendered better. It also would have been more appealing, more "collectible". I agree that the metallurgy should have been thought out much more carefully. That would have added to its appeal as well.

 

In general, if the mint would give up this effort to flatten all our coins down to nothing and go back to the turn of the 20th century idea of high relief coins, I think we would be much better served as collectors. Of course this would cost them more money to do, which is why all of our coins are relief-flattened these days...to save money.

 

So what's the answer? I got it! Make the flattened relief designs and coins for the typical circulation, and go back to the nice, deep-dish designs for the mint sets and proof sets so we collectors can have what we want as well!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg - At least you made me laugh... laugh.gif

 

but let's not get into an education debate here.

 

Well, it may not be an education debate, but I first learned about Sacagawea in something less than or equal to 3rd grade. I remembered her quite vividly, although i did not remember her son. As for the educational side of this, it is more a failing of people in the U.S. to teach and learn history than it is a matter of her somewhat minor significance in that history. Again, if a person is simply looking for history, the allegory of the coin is ample.

 

We don't even know what she looked like.

 

There were adequate descriptions of her. She was somewhat frail. She was a young teen when she joind L&C. She was Shoshone.

 

Ugly obverse? To each their own. Some of the images of Liberty were atrocious.

 

Ugly reverse? Interesting you should say the eagle is skinny. I like it because it is one of the most natural depictions of a bald eagle on our coins. I typically laugh at the eagles of Barber and Morgan. They were more liked starved chickens with clipped wings! blush.giflaugh.gif

 

Johnny - What does the failed attempt to market the coin have to do with its looks? I can accept the idea of "to each his/her own", however.

 

As for the toning of the coin, I did say that the coin has metal problems. No doubt the Mint learned nothing by the composition of the wartime nickels!

 

Oh well, it's fun to talk about a coin at least! smile.gif

 

Hoot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Johnny - What does the failed attempt to market the coin have to do with its looks? I can accept the idea of "to each his/her own", however."

 

Like I said Hoot...maybe my judgment is clouded....a couple others hit a vein with me about the "political correctness" issue as well.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Personally, one of the most horrifying coins I've seen is the Chain cent. Blissfully, most representations are worn enough that collectors don't have to realize how ugly Liberty appears. )

 

No... you didn't just say that! The bad hair day is symbolic of a hard fight with the Red Coats! Keith Dagen.... Dagen... Da..ge..n....... Hey you are a English! Still bitter are we??? wink.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No... you didn't just say that! The bad hair day is symbolic of a hard fight with the Red Coats! Keith Dagen.... Dagen... Da..ge..n....... Hey you are a English! Still bitter are we???

 

Dagen = German

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well - never being one who is shy or adverse to voicing my opinion - I like the coin - just the way it is. I like the obverse - I like the reverse - I even like the alloy ! It is unique - different and generally appeals to me. What's more - I credit the Mint and those who pushed for the coin's design and release.

 

Good on ya Hoot for the post !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Ike only gains some grace when it tones well (see 1974-S Blue Ike, Attached). Most business strike Ike's have many hits and abrasions in the field of the coin. There is too much field in the design. I like the Commem. Ike Dollar much better. Too bad they did not swap the two designs. tongue.gif

 

The Peace Dollar suffers from the same design shortcomings as the Ike.

64926-1974BlueIke.jpg.c1d2a008140d1e86ef16a3d67aceea0e.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of the Sacs I've seen that were carried as pocket pieces had a very attactive color and no spotting. It's primary problem may be that it doesn't circulate. It is hardly the best of the Goodacre designs and then the mint changed it and it lost a lot. But however bad the reasons for picking the design, the fact remains that it is a good design of a good subject. Sacagawea was instrumental in the success of the Lewis and Clark expedition which may have been critical to the eventual geography of the nation.

 

We do deserve better quality coins from the US mint. Their die shop is kept so busy making dies for the cent that they have to artificially extend the life of all dies by constantly lowering the relief. The cent is an anachronism which costs far more than it's scant value. It also serves to displace the dollar coin from cash registers making it more difficult for he dollar coin to circulate. Now that people are looking at their coins again, many are complaining about what they see. The mint must either stop cent production or expand their capacity just to get their quality in the same ballpark with world standards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Their die shop is kept so busy making dies for the cent that they have to artificially extend the life of all dies by constantly lowering the relief.

 

The relief is lowered to allow faster production of coins at a lower pressure. There is no need for higher relief coins for commerce.

 

 

The cent is an anachronism which costs far more than it's scant value.

 

Are you saying that it costs more than 1¢ to produce a cent? If so, that is a myth.

 

 

It also serves to displace the dollar coin from cash registers making it more difficult for he dollar coin to circulate.

 

The dollar bill in my wallet prevents the dollar coin from circulating. If there was a demand for the dollar coin stores would use that change cup that now holds rubber bands and paper clips and use it for the dollar coin. There is no demand for a dollar coin as the public greatly prefers the dollar bill.

 

 

The mint must either stop cent production or expand their capacity just to get their quality in the same ballpark with world standards.

 

And which mint produces higher quality coins? And when was the last time the mint was unable to meet demand? 1960's?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Coins could be made even faster if the relief were lowered even more. Where does it end?

 

The cent racks up tremendous handling costs during it's short life.

 

Even if the banks issued the dollar coin and consumers accepted them readily they would still fail if the stores just returned them to the banks. Most cash registers don't have enough trays to hold the dollar and the cent.

 

The mint does an excellent job of meeting demand and their customers haven't demanded quality in many years. Virtually all world mints make better coins on average.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cladking,

 

Have you seen any of the public polls regarding the Sac dollar???

 

Overwhelming, the public has stated that they will not use a dollar COIN if a dollar BILL is available. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think eliminating the cent will make the dollar circulate. The only thing you will do is eliminate the cent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keith: Maybe that is not such a bad thing. The equivalent coin in CE-Europe does not even circulate. They also have coinage up to the equivalent of $4-$5 US. You do not get bills under about E10. This country sometimes hangs onto traditions that make no cents (sense-no pun intended). tongue.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Charles,

 

I agree. Canada has $1 and $2 coins, but they eliminated bills below $5. Otherwise, their public would not accept those coins. Except at a fractional level, coins will not replace bills if both are available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're right, of course, that eliminating the cent will not make the dollar coin circulate. The dollar bill will probably need to be phased out to get the coin circulating, but this will occur more smoothly if the cent is not around to impede it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't like the Sackie for three reasons, and none of them have to do with the design, which I think is attractive.

 

1) The coin has a PC design. I wish we could get away from placating special interest groups with U.S. coin designs. The Suzie was PC and the Sackie is also. Thank goodness the state quarters have not been. mad.gif

 

2) As a merchant who most travel as light as possible, I don't want to have to carry the Sackie instead of the dollar bill. Getting though airport security is bad enough without having more metal to get hastled about. blush.gif

 

3) I resent it when the government tells me how I should spend my money. My taxes are high enough, and despite the fact the government would save money if the Sackie replaced the dollar bill, I know that I would not see any of those benefits in lower taxes. I'd just get to haul the Sackies around with out compensation. tongue.gif

 

There in a nutshell is why I don't like the Sackie and her sister and bother, Suzie and Ike. ooo.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites