If you got a 2 pt. upgrade, would you sell via the same auction co. and so soon?

[MarkFeld]

 

MS65 - July of this year

 

MS67* - Coming up for sale in October

 

 

 

I remember this coin from when I viewed it in July and bid strong MS66 money for it, but got outbid. However, if I were going to sell a coin that I had gotten a 2 point upgrade on, I don't think I'd sell it through the same auction house which handled it previously, at least not so soon afterwards.

 

How much, if at all, do you think you would be affected, knowing a coin you like had previously been graded 2 points lower?

 

If you were the original buyer and obtained a 2 point upgrade, would you subsequently offer it for sale in this manner?

 

 

[Coindude]

I call that a 2+ upgrade there... and I'm in agreement there Mark, the guy has big ones... and I'm talking bowling ball size, 16 lb! I'm sure he'll get plenty of upgrade money there, gorgeous coin. I'm sure he payed more than 65 money anyhow, it was a very nice coin before.

[TJ'S Coins]

This represents the changing grading standards that many deplore. As a buyer I would fine a different venue to sell so that it would be disconnected from its previous grade. The one obtaining the 2 point upgrade hopes to laugh all the way to the bank.

[gmarguli]

The coin sold for a huge premium as an MS65 and any knowledgeable (potential) buyer would recognize that the coin was clearly undergraded the first time and in an old slab. I don't think it will have any affect on the selling price this time.

 

Tags: gradeflation, CAC, wanker

[Mark T]

I bet the seller is using that no sellers fee coupon from Heritage

My guess is that anyone who would bid on a coin like this would do plenty

of on line research first to see if the coin had been sold in past auctions.

Let’s say it went to Bowers, their pictures as we all know look a lot different then Heritage. With that being said I think a sophisticated buyer with a sharp eye would be able to figure it out even if the coin was re slabbed at a higher grade. My bet is that Heritage is waiving the sellers fee for this coin.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I bet the seller is using that no sellers fee coupon from Heritage

I bet he isn't, because there's a decent chance that he's a large consignor and gets more than 100% of hammer without a certificate.

[James_OldeTowne]

I think the timing is less important than the venue.

[MAULEMALL]

I bet the seller is using that no sellers fee coupon from Heritage

I bet he isn't, because there's a decent chance that he's a large consignor and gets more than 100% of hammer without a certificate.

Does Heritage bid on coins and I was under the impression that Heritage had some of the best graders in the biz.... Why wasn't it resubmitted for an upgrade prior to the first auction??

 

 

Something about this is odorous of fish..

[MarkFeld]

I bet the seller is using that no sellers fee coupon from Heritage

I bet he isn't, because there's a decent chance that he's a large consignor and gets more than 100% of hammer without a certificate.

Does Heritage bid on coins and I was under the impression that Heritage had some of the best graders in the biz.... Why wasn't it resubmitted for an upgrade prior to the first auction??

 

 

Something about this is odorous of fish..

I am under the impression that Heritage bids on coins in their sales and has some very sharp numismatists there. It would have been up to the submitter to resubmit the coin prior to its sale if he wanted to do that. And I see nothing "odorous", just an under-graded coin that upgraded (by 2 points) upon resubmission.

[MBA101]

I see this all the time with Bust Halves. I guess you can do this, because they often sell. My guess is there are enough people that are new or were not paying very close attention.

[MAULEMALL]

I bet the seller is using that no sellers fee coupon from Heritage

I bet he isn't, because there's a decent chance that he's a large consignor and gets more than 100% of hammer without a certificate.

Does Heritage bid on coins and I was under the impression that Heritage had some of the best graders in the biz.... Why wasn't it resubmitted for an upgrade prior to the first auction??

 

 

Something about this is odorous of fish..

I am under the impression that Heritage bids on coins in their sales and has some very sharp numismatists there. It would have been up to the submitter to resubmit the coin prior to its sale if he wanted to do that. And I see nothing "odorous", just an under-graded coin that upgraded (by 2 points) upon resubmission.

I don't believe we are talking about a generic Morgan... We are talking about an Extreamly attractive (Hence the Star) 2 point under graded coin that has some of the Keenest eyes in the biz who Pooh Poohed all over the original consignor...

Premium 65 money has got to be much less than 67 STAR money.

 

And to be honest Mark, I am a little surprised at your attitude.

 

 

edited to add I see that it went for

Sold for: $6,325.00 (includes BP) Bid Source: Internet

 

but a 67 without the star has prices realized at $9300.00

 

 

[jgrinz]

Mark as well as I know that they will try to buy coins BEFORE they go to auction as they had done with me when I sold my 6 Coronet head $20 gold. They threw an almost rediculous offer to buy outright from me and of course I refused. I did pretty well when the went through the auction.

 

Sorry to be OT: They may have well bought it themselves, I think this is what Mark is alluding to. That would be the ONLY reason I can think of where the same coin would go through the same venue twice in three months time.

 

I don't disrespect them anyless as that is THEIR business ... It was probably a collector selling on their own with out the use of a DEALER to do it for them and guide him in the process. In this case the dealer may have said "this is a really nice coin and you might think of have reviewed" before auctioning it.

 

I know MARK would do that right Mark ?

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I bet the seller is using that no sellers fee coupon from Heritage

I bet he isn't, because there's a decent chance that he's a large consignor and gets more than 100% of hammer without a certificate.

Does Heritage bid on coins and I was under the impression that Heritage had some of the best graders in the biz.... Why wasn't it resubmitted for an upgrade prior to the first auction??

 

 

Something about this is odorous of fish..

I am under the impression that Heritage bids on coins in their sales and has some very sharp numismatists there. It would have been up to the submitter to resubmit the coin prior to its sale if he wanted to do that. And I see nothing "odorous", just an under-graded coin that upgraded (by 2 points) upon resubmission.

I don't believe we are talking about a generic Morgan... We are talking about an Extreamly attractive (Hence the Star) 2 point under graded coin that has some of the Keenest eyes in the biz who Pooh Poohed all over the original consignor...

Premium 65 money has got to be much less than 67 STAR money.

 

And to be honest Mark, I am a little surprised at your attitude.

 

 

edited to add I see that it went for

Sold for: $6,325.00 (includes BP) Bid Source: Internet

 

but a 67 without the star has prices realized at $9300.00

 

Patrick, my "attitude" is that I don't have any information indicating that Heritage did anything wrong. You seem to be blaming them in some way and that seems unfair.

 

For all we know, the consignor is extremely sharp and thought the coin was a solid 66, but felt it would do better in the old holder. It's not like it was a guaranteed 67. It brought 66+ money and if it had graded 66 upon re-submission, would have been a bad deal.

 

Heck, for all we know, Heritage might have owned the coin.

[michael]

i think these insider upgrade guys really do not care as they just do not think about it

 

because

 

time and time again they will find a live one to bid on this coin even if it had a 4 point upgrade in the same venue the next auction as many buyers just ONLY BUY the holder

 

also i think this insider has connections as i know i would most likely never get this upgrade at all and since this insider has been doing this all along with decent results and always gets decent results it really doesnot matter to him it is just a money making game which he usually wins at

 

and i am sure he gets more than 105% but he at least gets 105%

 

i have seen this so many times like this from one auction to the next that it is A COMMON OCCURANCE

[Mark T]

I was kidding about the freebie certificate. Little guys like me get them when I buy a

$ 2000 coin. Heritage buying this coin from the last auction and resubmitting for a better grade to resell it makes sense. If this was the case then I am sure they had NGC take a look at it prior the July Auction to ensure that the coin would be upgraded 2 points with a star. Does not sound unethical to me , these guys basically are all in bed together anyway.

 

[MarkFeld]

I was kidding about the freebie certificate. Little guys like me get them when I buy a

$ 2000 coin. Heritage buying this coin from the last auction and resubmitting for a better grade to resell it makes sense. If this was the case then I am sure they had NGC take a look at it prior the July Auction to ensure that the coin would be upgraded 2 points with a star. Does not sound unethical to me , these guys basically are all in bed together anyway.

Mark, we have no information that Heritage was the buyer/is the consignor now. And more importantly, the scenario you mentioned about "they had NGC take a look at it prior the July Auction to ensure that the coin would be upgraded 2 points with a star. Does not sound unethical to me , these guys basically are all in bed together anyway." is extremely far fetched. And if that occurred - I am confident it didn't - it was extremely unethical on the part of both parties.

 

[Mark T]

I am sure that certain special circumstances will arise from time to time and maybe a special favor is given. You know it happens all the time in business. NGC and PCGS are always present at all Heritage auctions. It would be very easy for them to take a look at the coin and make an opinion. Heritage has a lot of sharp people working for them, they see a coin that is an obviously under graded coin. Someone at NGC takes a look at it and agrees. Heritage offers to buy the coin from the seller prior to the auction , the seller declines so Heritage bids on it the open auction. I just said this could happen as a possible scenario. Ok maybe I have an overly active imagination.

[MikeInFL]

How much, if at all, do you think you would be affected, knowing a coin you like had previously been graded 2 points lower?

 

If you were the original buyer and obtained a 2 point upgrade, would you subsequently offer it for sale in this manner?

 

I would likely not be affected. I try (very hard with varied success) to focus on the coin not the holder. If I thought the coin was worth 67* money to begin with I would have bid that the first time (and it seems as if at least 2 people thought it was worth 4x 65 money the first time around).

 

As for if I were the original buyer -- which is a bit nonsensical because I don't bid on coins to upgrade/make money on them, but rather because I want them for my collection -- I would have likely not put it back in the Heritage sale. However, given the volume of coins at Heritage, the fact that many people buy the holder not the coin, and not eveyone has the memory you do , I suspect that it will make little difference, and some insufficiently_thoughtful_person with too much money or dealer who thinks they can sell it for a proft person will bid the coin up well above what it sold for previously....Mike

[Coindude]

What... Heritage is out to make the most money they possibly can? Even if they gyp off a consigner? Say it aint so Batman! Of course they bid on the premium stuff. Like we didn't know that already? It's just not said very often. They mess over the small collector all the time. Just recently, a good friend consigned a bunch of nice wheaties to an auction house that we'll call "THE BIG H" ( Heretofore to be known as H). They chose not to combine coins of lower value so that regardless of the sale price the only entity that actually made money in a lot of the transactions was H. The fact is, H's picture taking abilities are horrible! Yes, I said it...! Even I can take better pictures of coins! And if I can take better pictures of coins then what do you think a Mark Goodman or Bekoca or ... well, there's a lot of guys out there who's pictures are absolutely gorgeous compared to H's photography. Some coins, well, they are given justice, but not all. And, at times it makes me wonder, do they intentionally take bad pictures of good coins so that the bids won't be as high so they can pick them up low ball and then later make a larger profit for themselves? Or even crack out and regrade and make a killing on a coin that all they did was cherrypick on someone elses dime? Would all the conspiracy theorists please step forward and take on this task! Thanks!

[MarkFeld]

They chose not to combine coins of lower value so that regardless of the sale price the only entity that actually made money in a lot of the transactions was H.

I know of very few, if any, consignors who would want their individual coins combined into a single lot. If the coins you are speaking of were worth so little that the consignor netted less by selling them as individual lots, chances are that they should never have been consigned for auction in the first place.

 

And, at times it makes me wonder, do they intentionally take bad pictures of good coins so that the bids won't be as high so they can pick them up low ball and then later make a larger profit for themselves?

I seriously doubt that. If a coin is under-graded, it won't matter how bad the images are, as there are plenty of sharp bidders who view the coins in person. And by the way, the coin that is/was the subject of this thread looked quite nice in the images.

[just-john]

While it did upgrade 2 points will be interesting to see what it sells for I'm thinking closer to the $6300.00 price than the $9300.00 price.Hard to predict the future these days.Still comes down to what somebody will pay on any given day more than the grade i hope.

[bsshog40]

I don't really see any problem with what the seller is doing. Even yourself, Mark, bid 66 money when it was a 65 knowing that it would probably upgrade and be valued at more. The seller/former buyer knew what he was buying and looks like did so with a little investment for re-grade and now looking for the profit.

[dean1345]

I would choose a different auction house and probably let some time expire before offering it again. I would not need to flip it quickly so timing is also important.

 

Dean

[MAULEMALL]

While it did upgrade 2 points will be interesting to see what it sells for I'm thinking closer to the $6300.00 price than the $9300.00 price.Hard to predict the future these days.Still comes down to what somebody will pay on any given day more than the grade i hope.

Really?? These are the last three lots sold by Heritage ,, None of them were Stars

Lot Date Grade Service Realized

Auction 1114, Lot 10 Sunday, August 3, 2008 67 NGC $9,200.00

Auction 430, Lot 2786 Saturday, February 17, 2007 67 NGC $7,475.00

Auction 414, Lot 5111 Monday, August 14, 2006 67 NGC $8,050.00

 

[MarkFeld]

While it did upgrade 2 points will be interesting to see what it sells for I'm thinking closer to the $6300.00 price than the $9300.00 price.Hard to predict the future these days.Still comes down to what somebody will pay on any given day more than the grade i hope.

Really?? These are the last three lots sold by Heritage ,, None of them were Stars

Lot Date Grade Service Realized

Auction 1114, Lot 10 Sunday, August 3, 2008 67 NGC $9,200.00

Auction 430, Lot 2786 Saturday, February 17, 2007 67 NGC $7,475.00

Auction 414, Lot 5111 Monday, August 14, 2006 67 NGC $8,050.00

I agree that it will sell closer to (if not above) the higher price above, as opposed to the lower one.

 

Patrick, I'm still curious as to what you think Heritage did wrong?

[Tradedollarnut]

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1108&Lot_No=655&src=pr#

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?SaleNo=1117&LotIdNo=1158&txtSearch=&hdnSearch=true

[MarkFeld]

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1108&Lot_No=655&src=pr#

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?SaleNo=1117&LotIdNo=1158&txtSearch=&hdnSearch=true

Bruce, please pay attention - this thread is supposed to be about 2 point upgrades, not mere 1 point upgrades.

[MAULEMALL]

While it did upgrade 2 points will be interesting to see what it sells for I'm thinking closer to the $6300.00 price than the $9300.00 price.Hard to predict the future these days.Still comes down to what somebody will pay on any given day more than the grade i hope.

Really?? These are the last three lots sold by Heritage ,, None of them were Stars

Lot Date Grade Service Realized

Auction 1114, Lot 10 Sunday, August 3, 2008 67 NGC $9,200.00

Auction 430, Lot 2786 Saturday, February 17, 2007 67 NGC $7,475.00

Auction 414, Lot 5111 Monday, August 14, 2006 67 NGC $8,050.00

I agree that it will sell closer to (if not above) the higher price above, as opposed to the lower one.

 

Patrick, I'm still curious as to what you think Heritage did wrong?

In truth I can't say they did anything Wrong.

I just can't say that they did anything. Absolutely nothing to earn their %.

And in their ineptitude and sloth they cost their Client a possible $3,000.00 plus.

 

Now what I would like to know is if they were the high bidder.

[MAULEMALL]

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1108&Lot_No=655&src=pr#

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?SaleNo=1117&LotIdNo=1158&txtSearch=&hdnSearch=true

Bruce, please pay attention - this thread is supposed to be about 2 point upgrades, not mere 1 point upgrades.

2 points And a Star.... much akin to 2 points and a Bean..

[MarkFeld]

While it did upgrade 2 points will be interesting to see what it sells for I'm thinking closer to the $6300.00 price than the $9300.00 price.Hard to predict the future these days.Still comes down to what somebody will pay on any given day more than the grade i hope.

Really?? These are the last three lots sold by Heritage ,, None of them were Stars

Lot Date Grade Service Realized

Auction 1114, Lot 10 Sunday, August 3, 2008 67 NGC $9,200.00

Auction 430, Lot 2786 Saturday, February 17, 2007 67 NGC $7,475.00

Auction 414, Lot 5111 Monday, August 14, 2006 67 NGC $8,050.00

I agree that it will sell closer to (if not above) the higher price above, as opposed to the lower one.

 

Patrick, I'm still curious as to what you think Heritage did wrong?

In truth I can't say they did anything Wrong.

I just can't say that they did anything. Absolutely nothing to earn their %.

And in their ineptitude and sloth they cost their Client a possible $3,000.00 plus.

 

Now what I would like to know is if they were the high bidder.

What was their "ineptitude" and "sloth" in this case? And they earned their % by cataloging the coin and exposing it to a huge audience via their catalogs, the internet and lot viewing. If you don't feel they earned it, how often DO you feel that an auction house earns their commission?