You WILL NOT believe my latest acquisition!!!

[gmarguli]

This is my gut feel with regard to the value of the coin. With all due respect to the OP, the NGC compensation seems generous, if not exceptionally so. In both of my experiences with NGC, their compensation was exceedingly fair.

 

We don't know what the coin looks like now. What if NCS was able to remove all the junk and the coin is now a Choice AU (broken in half)? Makes a big difference in how successful the conservation was.

 

Here is the same date coin that appears to have some corrosion on both sides and some planchet issues.

 

 

It sold for close to $1,000 two years ago. Since this time the Euro has soared, rare world coin prices have skyrocketed, and rare world coins have been selling for stupid money. If I heard that this coin recently sold for $3,000, it would not surprise me in the least.

 

Therefore, is $500 fair? I don't know. Perhaps someone would pay $2,000 or $5,000 for this coin before it was broken in half. I've seen more (to me) insane prices paid recently. Coins that sold for $150 a couple years ago selling for $2,000 today. Stuff a year ago I'd pick up for under $20 are bringing $150-$250 today. World coin prices are wild and way too tough to gauge right now especially for truly rare coins.

 

Still, E800/$1,100 is the max he should get since that was the declared value.

 

And I should add that the one time NGC bought back a coin from me, I thought the compensation was very fair and the process very easy.

[MikeInFL]

For a PHD it is obvious that he either didn't receive it in business or PHD stands for Phony Has Diploma. ... I now understand why his name is Dirt Fisher, he digs up coins and tries to pass them off as normal imho.

 

Alan, That is simply uncalled for, not to mention you are guilty of the same thing you're accusing Dirt Fisher of doing (misrepresenting things to make your argument). In short, I think this is emotion not logic speaking, and there is no need to stoop to that level, even presuming the rest of your post (which I agree with in large part) is accurate. Take the high road, my friend. Respectfully...Mike

[cpm9ball]

For a PHD it is obvious that he either didn't receive it in business or PHD stands for Phony Has Diploma. ... I now understand why his name is Dirt Fisher, he digs up coins and tries to pass them off as normal imho.

 

Alan, That is simply uncalled for, not to mention you are guilty of the same thing you're accusing Dirt Fisher of doing (misrepresenting things to make your argument). In short, I think this is emotion not logic speaking, and there is no need to stoop to that level, even presuming the rest of your post (which I agree with in large part) is accurate. Take the high road, my friend. Respectfully...Mike

 

Mike is right! Regardless of how Daryl handled this from the outset, there is no reason to start mudslinging. I think that everyone, myself included, who had a little fun with the "educational achievements" were not trying to be mean. You have certainly gone beyond those bounds.

 

Chris

[realone]

Mile,

is right, although I thought I was writing humor if it wasn't coming off the way I intended then it shouldn't be said, I removed it from my post, thanks for the heads up, in no way did i intend to sling any dirt, huh I mean mud.

 

This is his post on the Darkside:

Hi Folks,

 

"I'm new here. I just getting into the game of finding and trying to conserve coins. I metal detect in the US, UK, and the Netherlands. I got lucky this year and found a low mintage coin. It's silver so it stands up pretty well. I am having this one conserved and we will see what they can do and what the grade will be.

 

The coin is a Willem I - Self-Declared King of the Netherlands - 1819 Silver 5 cents piece. He only lasted about 5 years so his coins are very collectible as a set. For some reason, the mintage for 1819 was only 3000 coins.

 

I'll just have to wait on the conservation and grading to see how high I will get to jump.

 

Daryl "

 

And this is the first part of his post here:

 

"My latest acquisition is one that I believe NONE of you would want.

 

I recently submitted a general circulation silver coin of extremely low mintage - 3000 minted - to NCS for conservation, authentication, over the NGC for grading and slabbing. I had offers of over $3,000 before conservation and I thought it would be a good thing to do. Maybe improve the value??"

 

I do see two different stories being told, he does admit to digging it out of the ground in his first post, and his post here to me alludes to acquiring a circulated coin which to me is changing the story or enhancing it making it seem the complete opposite of his first post on the Darkside. I believe both posts really do speak for themselves and tell the REAL story of what he is trying to put over with NGC/NCS but this is jmho, carry on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BioProf]

Guess I invaded the little boys clubhouse. When you get through beating me up, questioning my education, accusing me of lying, and belittling me, please let me know. I might just have something to say.

 

Daryl

 

an yes it is a real Ph.D. from an R1 school. Since you all know so much I will assume you know what an R1 school is.

[realone]

I would first like to admit my last post was a little pointed at some inconsistencies that I observed in your posts and I also would like to admit that I did feel that you were unjustifiably attacking NCS/NGC for non payment of a debt. If I went to far out of line I will also apologize for that and retract anything that I said that seemed that I was attacking the op.

 

Daryl if you can just tell what you know about the situation I will be most interested in listening and will not make any more judgments. I hope you understand if it weren't for the tone in your first post I wouldn't have gone overboard.

 

[MarkFeld]

Mile,

is right, although I thought I was writing humor if it wasn't coming off the way I intended then it shouldn't be said, I removed it from my post, thanks for the heads up, in no way did i intend to sling any dirt, huh I mean mud.

 

This is his post on the Darkside:

Hi Folks,

 

"I'm new here. I just getting into the game of finding and trying to conserve coins. I metal detect in the US, UK, and the Netherlands. I got lucky this year and found a low mintage coin. It's silver so it stands up pretty well. I am having this one conserved and we will see what they can do and what the grade will be.

 

The coin is a Willem I - Self-Declared King of the Netherlands - 1819 Silver 5 cents piece. He only lasted about 5 years so his coins are very collectible as a set. For some reason, the mintage for 1819 was only 3000 coins.

 

I'll just have to wait on the conservation and grading to see how high I will get to jump.

 

Daryl "

 

And this is the first part of his post here:

 

"My latest acquisition is one that I believe NONE of you would want.

 

I recently submitted a general circulation silver coin of extremely low mintage - 3000 minted - to NCS for conservation, authentication, over the NGC for grading and slabbing. I had offers of over $3,000 before conservation and I thought it would be a good thing to do. Maybe improve the value??"

 

I do see two different stories being told, he does admit to digging it out of the ground in his first post, and his post here to me alludes to acquiring a circulated coin which to me is changing the story or enhancing it making it seem the complete opposite of his first post on the Darkside. I believe both posts really do speak for themselves and tell the REAL story of what he is trying to put over with NGC/NCS but this is jmho, carry on.

 

 

 

 

 

Alan, what on earth are you talking about? I see nothing in the two posts that contradict each other or tell different stories.

[jgrinz]

I guess someones definition of "aquisition" maybe different than others.

 

I think FINDING a coin by Metal detecting and FINDING a coin and purchasing it are pretty equal by my assessment. I do not find the two that different myself.

 

 

 

[MikeKing]

I'm just wondering, if the coin cracked in half, what was holding it together to being with?

[realone]

I guess I am too into the X-files or I should say I must miss the show a little too much and have become a conspiracy writer in absentia for them. I REALLY took what he said a little too literally and thought that he was saying two completely different things. I will eat crow has handed to me, pile it on and I will stuff my big freakin mouth into it. MY bad, sorry all!

 

I will take a more lenient approach and stop tryint to safeguard NGC's assets/name, what can I say I am guilty.

 

Edited for some spelling errors.

[shirohniichan]

Guess I invaded the little boys clubhouse. When you get through beating me up, questioning my education, accusing me of lying, and belittling me, please let me know. I might just have something to say.

 

Daryl

 

an yes it is a real Ph.D. from an R1 school. Since you all know so much I will assume you know what an R1 school is.

 

With all the flaming that goes on here, those who come from schools with a higher R-value generally don't get burned as badly.

[cpm9ball]

Since you all know so much I will assume you know what an R1 school is.

 

I haven't the slightest idea. What is it? Uncle Sam sent me an invitation in 1969 during my 2nd year of college and I never returned.

 

Chris

[WinstonWare]

Citing one’s degree when it has nothing at all to do with the conversation reeks of pretension. I don’t mind the mudslinging…

[MarkFeld]

Citing one’s degree when it has nothing at all to do with the conversation reeks of pretension. I don’t mind the mudslinging…

Some people do that as a matter of course, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being pretentious. And it doesn't warrant mudslinging.

[jesbroken]

Chris,

Unk grabbed me in 68'. By the way, R1 Universities tend to be more research vs. teaching in their doctorate studies(50/50). R2 tends to be more teaching vs. research. R1 schools tend to be more sought out than R2. This is just my opinon, Daryl, so correct me please if I am wrong.

By the way, Daryl, I feel a larger sum should be offered also. I feel the $1100 range would be far more acceptable.

It matters not in the least as to how you acquired the coin or how much you have invested in it.The only thing that matters is the current value at the time of the destruction(how on earth did that happen?)

I would love to see pics of the breakage area to see if it was previously cracked and if the coin was bowed at all to show being in a bending position before breakage. Just curious.

Please Daryl, put aside any misconceptions about our little boy's club. We are all interested in your numismatic well being. No one has any prejudice here(at least that I have ever witnessed) for any reason. Sometimes tempers flare for many reasons unrelated to the incident.

I wish you the best of luck and hope this issue finalizes in your favor. Please do keep us informed as to the outcome.

Jim

[physics-fan3.14]

Citing one’s degree when it has nothing at all to do with the conversation reeks of pretension. I don’t mind the mudslinging…

 

The only mudslinging I want to be involved with requires two blondes.

[jgrinz]

Citing one’s degree when it has nothing at all to do with the conversation reeks of pretension. I don’t mind the mudslinging…

 

The only mudslinging I want to be involved with requires two blondes.

 

 

Ohhhh Stop ittttt !!!

 

I see a couple of suspect areas where NCS should have NOT EVEN have touched the coin.

Small and cut from his pics but there are definite issues ...

 

[realone]

What I am trying to understand and I could use a little info is if one has a coin that is covered with corrosion/debris for lack of a better word and/or that is possibly slightly bent and/or slightly cracked where the submitter sends the subject coin in to NCS for conservation; isn't that akin to giving NCS a blank check to perform their miracles whatever they maybe and if such a coin with all the surface corrosion covering and/or not covering as the case maybe the flaws/damage to the coin ends up worse off isn't that the risk of the procedure. And that is why NCS doesn't insure said work/possible damage.

 

The reason that I bring this up is that I am against cleaning/dipping (I know most thing dipping is fine and therefore I must be crazy but that is jmo) so if I send for instance a copper proof into NCS and it comes back pink and/or blue that would be my problem because by sending it to them I gave them carte blanche to do what was required by them to conserve it being whatever they deemed proper.

 

So if premise is true then how can NCS be responsible for an unintended outcomes especially if a coin already has a crack or bend in it.Help me out there guys, I would like to understand this.

[cpm9ball]

Citing one’s degree when it has nothing at all to do with the conversation reeks of pretension. I don’t mind the mudslinging…

 

The only mudslinging I want to be involved with requires two blondes.

 

That isn't mud. It's chocolate pudding.

 

Chris

[MarkFeld]

What I am trying to understand and I could use a little info is if one has a coin that is covered with corrosion/debris for lack of a better word and/or that is possibly slightly bent and/or slightly cracked where the submitter sends the subject coin in to NCS for conservation; isn't that akin to giving NCS a blank check to perform their miracles whatever they maybe and if such a coin with all the surface corrosion covering and/or not covering as the case maybe the flaws/damage to the coin ends up worse off isn't that the risk of the procedure. And that is why NCS doesn't insure said work/possible damage.

 

The reason that I bring this up is that I am against cleaning/dipping (I know most thing dipping is fine and therefore I must be crazy but that is jmo) so if I send for instance a copper proof into NCS and it comes back pink and/or blue that would be my problem because by sending it to them I gave them carte blanche to do what was required by them to conserve it being whatever they deemed proper.

 

So if premise is true then how can NCS be responsible for an unintended outcomes especially if a coin already has a crack or bend in it.Help me out there guys, I would like to understand this.

NCS may decline to do anything to coins that are submitted and makes that choice on numerous occasions.They likely weigh any perceived or known down-side risk when making such a determination. And there's a big difference between a submitter being unhappy with how a coin looks after conservation (a fairly easily foreseeable outcome) vs. receiving it back in two pieces (a totally unexpected outcome).

 

Keep in mind that we don't know how the coin was damaged - corrosion, a crack, or whatever, might have had absolutely nothing to do with it.

[MikeInFL]

Mile,

is right, although I thought I was writing humor if it wasn't coming off the way I intended then it shouldn't be said, I removed it from my post, thanks for the heads up, in no way did i intend to sling any dirt, huh I mean mud.

 

...

 

I do see two different stories being told, he does admit to digging it out of the ground in his first post, and his post here to me alludes to acquiring a circulated coin which to me is changing the story or enhancing it making it seem the complete opposite of his first post on the Darkside. I believe both posts really do speak for themselves and tell the REAL story of what he is trying to put over with NGC/NCS but this is jmho, carry on.

 

Thanks Alan. You know me well enough to know I (often bluntly) call them like I see them. Quite honestly, I thought you made some really good points in the post-which-has-disappeared, but the way I read your response it seemed way over the top. Anyway, the point has been made, and I hope no hard feelings...Mike

[bsshog40]

I would think that it would be hard to guarantee the outcome of a metal detected coin. I metal detect also and have found some pretty corrored coins. I've never seen one break. I would think that in order for a coin to break in this condition, that the corrosion would have had to work it's way thru parts of the coin. This I would also think would have been easily recognizable. The coin pictured has plenty environmentaI I Agree, but it still doesn't look like it's breakable. I would be curious as to know what steps were started on the coin for conservation just before it broke. I would also like to add that isn't a coin that has environmental damage only going to be slabbed that way from NCS? There would have never been a grade assigned to this coin, am I right?

 

I just can't stop!!! Isn't there a reason for insurance. I've never submitted a coin for conservation but would think that when you mail a coin, you can insure it thru your mailing preference if there is not the option when sending to NCS, and that would also be some type of Record of value. Also, the guarantee for NCS is only for authentication of a coin. The conservation part doesn't list any type of guarantee at all. Knowing this tho', I would think that this paragraph from the NCS Conservation,

 

Sometimes confusion arises about the term "conservation." Numismatic conservation involves examination, scientific analysis, and a reliance upon an extensive base of numismatic knowledge to determine the nature of a coin’s state of preservation and the extent of any damage. Conservation also encompasses appropriate procedures to protect the coin’s original appearance and to guard against future deterioration to whatever extent possible.

 

Oh well, these are just some things I thought of. I don't blame the OP'er to be upset about his damaged coin. I would also think that NCS would give a full explanation has to how the damage occured, if it occured while in thier possession performing these scientific analysis's on it.

[MikeInFL]

Guess I invaded the little boys clubhouse. When you get through beating me up, questioning my education, accusing me of lying, and belittling me, please let me know. I might just have something to say.

 

Daryl

 

an yes it is a real Ph.D. from an R1 school. Since you all know so much I will assume you know what an R1 school is.

 

Mr. Fisher,

 

I think many here jumped on the bandwagon and prematurely judged you harshly. Being around here for a while, I suspect much of it was the fault of the many before you who have appeared on these forums with "problems", along with a lack of, and potentially conflicting, information in your first post, which resulted in the "little boys clubhouse" response.

 

Please don't misunderstand me.... It certainly must have come as a huge disappointment that your amazing find was irreparably damaged during conservation, and it is very reasonable response to try and get the word out so others at least go into such a thing with their eyes open -- and I commend you for trying to turn a personal hardship into an educational experience.

 

That said, here are a few points which I would like you to consider before feeling spurned by NCS (presuming that's the way you feel, and what I suspect led you to post what you did here) and judged unfairly by the forum:

 

First, as I understand it, you have no rights under the NCS agreement against damage during conservation. Essentially, you are in a bed of your own making. To your credit, you did acknowldege this in your first post, but it is important to realize.

 

Second, the fact that NCS made you an offer speaks to their committment to making things right, and you should give them credit for that. More to the point of why some reacted the way they did, your opening post led people to believe they were going to do nothing to make the situation right, which we found out later was not the case.

 

Third, NCS has a very good record (unlike many in the coin industry) of treating their customers right and reimbursing people fairly in the case of missed expectations, and your arguments that the value of the offer should be higher -- a series of unsubsantiated e-mails from dealers in Europe -- are completely immaterial, even if they are 100% accurate. NCS, a US company, and can't be held to a "best case" price to the EU. Just think of the precedent it would set otherwise.

 

Fourth, NCS seems to be offering a fair price, given what I've read and understand of the market in this coin here stateside (but I reserve judgement as I truly don't follow this market closely enough to know for myself). But again, your first post seemed to suggest this was not the case (i.e. "you are really on your own." and "If they break it, they don't have to buy it").

 

In conclusion, while I think your reaction to the situation is completely understandable, I can also relate to some of the forum's reaction to it given the inferences made (although I may have worded some of them a bit differently). So why don't we start again?

 

Respectfully and cordially submitted, with hope you will share what you have to say...Mike

 

p.s. I have no idea what an R1 school is. I do know what an R1 coin is!

[jgrinz]

Guess I invaded the little boys clubhouse. When you get through beating me up, questioning my education, accusing me of lying, and belittling me, please let me know. I might just have something to say.

 

Daryl

 

an yes it is a real Ph.D. from an R1 school. Since you all know so much I will assume you know what an R1 school is.

 

Mr. Fisher,

 

I think many here jumped on the bandwagon and prematurely judged you harshly. Being around here for a while, I suspect much of it was the fault of the many before you who have appeared on these forums with "problems", along with a lack of information in your first post, which resulted in the "little boys clubhouse" response.

 

Please don't misunderstand me.... It certainly must have come as a huge disappointment that your amazing find was irreparably damaged during conservation, and it is very reasonable response to try and get the word out so others at least go into such a thing with their eyes open -- and I commend you for trying to turn a personal hardship into an educational experience.

 

That said, here are a few points which I would like you to consider before feeling spurned by NCS (presuming that's the way you feel, and what I suspect led you to post what you did here) and judged unfairly by the forum:

 

First, as I understand it, you have no rights under the NCS agreement against damage during conservation. Essentially, you are in a bed of your own making. To your credit, you did acknowldege this in your first post, but it is important to realize.

 

Second, the fact that NCS made you an offer speaks to their committment to making things right, and you should give them credit for that. More to the point of why some reacted the way they did, your opening post led people to believe they were going to do nothing to make the situation right.

 

Third, NCS has a very good record (unlike many in the coin industry) of reimbursing people fairly, and your arguments that the value should be higher -- a series of unsubsantiated e-mails from dealers in Europe -- are completely immaterial. I believe NCS is a US company, and can't be held to extend to a "best case" price to the EU. Just think of the precedent it would set otherwise.

 

Fourth, NCS seems to be offering a fair price, given what I've read and understand of the market in this coin here stateside (but I reserve judgement as I truly don't follow this market closely enough to know for myself). But again, your first post seemed to suggest this was not the case (i.e. "you are really on your own." and "If they break it, they don't have to buy it").

 

In conclusion, while I think your reaction to the situation is completely understandable, I can also relate to some of the forum's reaction to it given the inferences made (although I may have worded some of them a bit differently). So why don't we start again?

 

Respectfully and cordially submitted, with hope you will share what you have to say...Mike

 

p.s. I have no idea what an R1 school is. I do know what an R1 coin is!

 

Very Well said

[MikeInFL]

Thank you, but please stop quoting me before I'm done editing the post!

[James_OldeTowne]

an yes it is a real Ph.D. from an R1 school. Since you all know so much I will assume you know what an R1 school is.

I am going to guess that "R1" in this context does not mean "common" !

 

That was strictly a non-mean-spirited bad coin joke ....

[jgrinz]

Thank you, but please stop quoting me before I'm done editing the post!

 

[realone]

I am hiring Mike to do all my speech writing when I decide to run for anything in the future. I guess that is why a didn't excel in any of my studies that were writing related while attending college in a R1 (rural/farming) area.

 

Mike, perfectly said, you are much appreciated!

[michael]

the NGC compensation is generous, if not exceptionally so.

[just-john]

The part with your submission where you put = I put an estimated value of 800 Euros as I thought that was fair = before it was conserved.

 

They= received valuation based on the examination of dealers with coin “in hand”.

 

and we have decided that $500 US plus the=== return of the coin in its current state=== would fairly compensate you in regards to this submission.

 

What made it break in half would like to see the coin when you get it back

 

by your submission form 800 Euro would be all I would pay if I lost the coin so $500 plus the coin back seem about right .Who knows maybe the person who offered you 3000 Euros

would pay 700 for one split in two

THAT NCS FEE 4% of declared value* up to $150,000 per coin, 2% of declared value* over $150,000 per coin, $15 minimum fee. "CHEAP INSURANCE"

 

HECK as far as schools go most of the grades I did twice