Did someone else get SCREWED by PCGS? Is it another Norweb fiasco??????

[James_OldeTowne]

Dennis caught this one:

 

non-Garrett Garrett Oak Tree twopence

[TonerGuy]

It certainly appears that this is yet another PCGS mistake. Whether it's a "mechanical error" as Hall likes to refer to them, or whether it is the same issue as the Norweb coin is unknown at this point in time.

 

But it is additional evidence that PCGS does in fact misattribute pedigrees. It is startling that a grading service would pedigree a coin without the proper research. It is imperative that a TPGS get this sort of thing right.

 

In my opinion, it just destroys what little credibility PCGS still has. The mistakes are blatant, their turnaround times are ridiculous, and the customer service is pathetic. The only thing keeping them afloat is the "herd mentality" as to their grading quality.

 

It is reassuring though that this seller discovered it and even broadcasted it. It could have been more profitable to sell it as a "Garrett" coin. I am curious whether they brought the misattribution to PCGS's attention and what kind of response they received. I also wonder if the new owner will try to have the Garrett pedigree removed.

 

Michael

[gmarguli]

I'd love to see the ex-B&M ANR employees buy it and try to collect on the guarantee. If that doesn't work, take PCGS to court. Get a little publicity for themselves.

[James_OldeTowne]

Apologies to MikeKing - I didn't realize that he'd already posted about this issue.

 

James

[MAULEMALL]

I'd love to see the ex-B&M ANR employees buy it and try to collect on the guarantee. If that doesn't work, take PCGS to court. Get a little publicity for themselves.

[jtryka]

I don't know much about the provenance etc., but I did browse that site, and man, that is one great auction website! I love the magnifier thinkgy when you put your mouse over the upper image of the coin, and I like the fact that the put somewhat more realistic starting bids on their lots (unlike the $1 start for Heritage). There were a couple of Saints that caught my eye, but alas my budget for the year is gone! At least I can add it to my favorites for the future.

[EVillageProwler]

As an FYI, my own experiences with getting the provenance labelled on the insert at NGC was quite reasonable. I had two pricey items that were from prominent collections, and DWL made sure that the supporting evidence was all in place before giving the OK on my request.

 

What DWL wanted in terms of supporting evidence may not have been sufficient for the scientific or legal community, but he did ask for plates, auction tags, etc.

 

EVP

 

[Fairlaneman]

If the Provenance is not correct then why is the coin up for auction? Does the Auction Company not think something should be done about this ? Ethics folks or just plain greed ?

 

Looks to me as though ANR is trying to screw someone. Probably not the Auction winner but the next guy down the line.

 

Ken

[MikeKing]

If the Provenance is not correct then why is the coin up for auction? Does the Auction Company not think something should be done about this ? Ethics folks or just plain greed ?

 

Looks to me as though ANR is trying to screw someone. Probably not the Auction winner but the next guy down the line.

 

At first I was wondering how you could think this way, because I have very fond feelings towards ANR, even though I lost out on a coin I REALLY wanted, and still do WANT, because their live internet bidding didn't function properly (of note, they claim this has been corrected). I felt this way because they seem like a really fine group of people who are giving it their best, and doing a good job at it. Also, their catalogue's are fantastic and the photography is the very best I've seen anywhere.

 

And, how are they trying to screw anyone?...I mean, they pointed out the error, they were bright enough to do it, and therefore, they will not be making money with improperly represented merchandise.

 

But then I re-read your last line: "Probably not the Auction winner but the next guy down the line."

 

And you have a good point there, because they are selling mis-labeled merchandise, where the label is usually sold along with the actual coin, by whoever buys it from them, and so on down the line.

 

Therein is their responsibility. In my mind, they should have advised the seller that the coin would have to be re-holdered, in order for them to auction it off. That would be the right thing to do. And it's still not too late for them to do it.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

((( But then I re-read your last line: "Probably not the Auction winner but the next guy down the line." )))

 

That's very insightful, and I agree with the sentiments both of you expressed. This situation has the exact same "look and feel" of our Norweb fiasco, in that the whole point of getting something "certified" is to include a guarantee with the merchandise that it is as described. Otherwise, it would be a waste of time to buy that guarantee.

 

In the situation you mentioned, where the "next guy down the line" get's nailed with the improper pedigree, will he be treated by David Hall the same way we were with our non-Norweb coin? Because if he is, then the PCGS guarantee is totally worthless, and the whole business model for PCGS is a sham.

 

 

((( In my mind, they should have advised the seller that the coin would have to be re-holdered, in order for them to auction it off. That would be the right thing to do. And it's still not too late for them to do it. )))

 

I don't think that's the solution either. What's to prevent the seller from selling the coin himself on ebay? or at a coin show? The issue is that PCGS MUST be held responsible for exactly what it is they imply they are responsible for, which includes authenticity of the pedigree. If they don't want to accept the responsibility, then they should not just slap pedigrees on the holder, period.

 

At this point, I question whether PCGS even honors their grading guarantee anymore. Have you looked at their website lately? Where is the grading guarantee posted? I have not been able to find it. Furthermore, even if I've carelessly missed it, why isn't their grading guarantee PROMINENTLY displayed on their website, considering it's the foundation of their entire business? In other words, doesn't PCGS basically proudly proclaim that they have made sight-unseen trading of coins possible by removing the issue of "grade" from the coins? So if they suddenly don't guarantee grades any more, or if they are evading guarantee of their grades, who's left holding the bag?

 

Speaking of "who's left holding the bag", isn't it interesting that one of Hall's favorite peeves is people "bagging" on PCGS?

 

 

James

[gmarguli]

At this point, I question whether PCGS even honors their grading guarantee anymore. Have you looked at their website lately? Where is the grading guarantee posted? I have not been able to find it. Furthermore, even if I've carelessly missed it, why isn't their grading guarantee PROMINENTLY displayed on their website, considering it's the foundation of their entire business?

 

It's there. It's buried under About PCGS. Why isn't it there prominently? Maybe to discourage people from trying to collect on it when we all know they'll just get excuses.

 

 

Speaking of "who's left holding the bag", isn't it interesting that one of Hall's favorite peeves is people "bagging" on PCGS?

 

David's problem is people not buying the lies he tells.

 

I have ZERO doubt that one of the following will happen in the next ~3 years. PCGS will have the market respectability of PCI. David Hall and his useless Board will be gone. Some government agency will investigate PCGS/CU and fine them big time and/or a private person wins a lawsuit against them because they didn't honor their guarantee. #3 is my guess.

 

[jtryka]

Ok, as far as PCGS and their guarantee goes, I have a simple solution that I use personally:

 

1. I pay 0 (zero) premium for a pedigree. I know that many people do pay it, but I think they are wrong. The main reason for paying up for a pedigreed coin is that these famous collectors were known for their high quality collections. If that's really the case, then the coins should stand on their own merits, after all, why should I pay a premium for a coin Norweb, or Eliasburg, or and old time collector if the coin in question is crappy?

 

2. The PCGS guarantee is worth 0 (zero) to me, therefore I do not buy PCGS (or any other services coins for that matter) sight unseen. I generally look at the coin and then pay what I think it's worth. Relative to the grade on the slab, if I disagree, I will pay more or less as appropriate.

 

Now I don't believe most collectors abide by my personal rules, but I think over time more and more will adopt them. The more stories I hear, especially about PCGS will make this a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they can mis-grade and mis-attribute coins without taking responsibility for it, why would I ever pay any premium for a coin entombed in their holder? The fact is I don't, and the majority of my recent purchases have not been in their holders (though it's been getting tougher to find the NGC bargains as kool-aid drinkers like WallStreetMan have become an endangered species). Eventually, if things don't change, I believe HRH's hubris will make the PCGS plastic a liability, just like ACG's is today. Just my opinion though.

[MikeKing]

Because if he is, then the PCGS guarantee is totally worthless, and the whole business model for PCGS is a sham.

 

You're being too kind.

After learning of your situation with them, I see that it's already a sham.

 

And what's even more pathetic is that they still haven't made amends and yet they continue to go on.