Is PCGS finit?

[Tradedollarnut]

Are they kaput, finit, done for, toast? Can they survive whatever strategy is going on at Corporate CU? Body bags everywhere on coins that don't deserve it, puttied coins getting thru, AU coins in 66 holders, two or three grade downgrades on crackout, undergrading auction coins, a public forum demanding that they live up to their grade guarantee and demanding consistency.

 

IrishMike stated that PCGS is nothing without their reputation. Isn't that very reputation being destroyed? You come on these boards and no one is griping about NGC, and yet management monitors it to ensure that the first sign of a gripe is rectified. Heck, they even monitor the PCGS chatroom! You go on the PCGS chatroom and half the posts, even from supporters, are skewering PCGS! If I was PCGS, I'd have a full time quality control person monitoring that board and fixing problems, but other than Charlie (who occasionally shows his face), no one appears. If I was PCGS, I'd focus on consistency and education: Mr Submittor, this is what we are looking for - this is why your coin was downgraded two grades or body bagged right after you broke it out of our holder. If I was PCGS, I'd stop the crossover hassles because it just encourages people to stop crossing the neat coins they find in other holders (it does NOT stop them from buying them!). I'd create a problem coin program ASAP, before the coins go to someone else. ETC, ETC

 

I doubt they'll go away financially anytime soon, but can they survive as one of the premier grading services without sudden and determined change?

[gmarguli]

You come on these boards and no one is griping about NGC

 

I've tried, but damn it, every time I post a gripe you have Dena or John or David coming in to rectify the problem. How can I gripe if those people at NGC won't stop fixing the problems?

 

Seriously, the roles of the services have been reversed in the past. It's gone back and forth. The only problem is when the roles were switching, there were lots of fresh classic coins out there to be graded. Not so any more.

 

PCGS is no longer the premier grading service with the exception of moderns - and that gap has closed considerably. They are #2 in submissions, #2 in quality, #2 in customer service, and tied for prices.

[braddick]

I've always been a staunch PCGS supporter (and, to a lesser extent, NGC) but TDN- there is no denying or overlooking that MS62 Trade dollar (now a PCGS bodybagged, cleaned coin).

 

YOU know your Trade dollars. If you say it wasn't cleaned and is a full MS62+ coin, then that is what it is, period. For PCGS to throw this one out is crazy.

There will always be the die hard supporters, those willing to look past everything and anything to see PCGS as the endall in grading, but more and more converts are leaving and going elsewhere because of this incident and the many more than proceed it and will follow it.

[jtryka]

It really doesn't surprise me, as most companies (regardless of industry) have a real problem in sustaining their competitive advantage over the long term. There will be flip flops in the future, just like in the past. To me the single biggest factor in the current PCGS debacle is their pure arrogance. The reason they do things like the trade dollar and so many others is that they think they can get away with it. And they're right as long as we let them get away with it.

[mark]

One issue that might be affecting PCGS is the miserable performance of Collectors' Universe. In particular, I've got to bet that the morale isn't particularly high there. If I was working there, I'd probably be more worried about saving my job than responding to collectors' complaints. Now, I realize that in the long run responding to complaints is what will lead to more jobs. But in the short run, if I worker there, I might well take the attitude of hunkering down and getting my job done so that I look as productive as possible...and hence as emplyable as possible.

 

 

Mark

[Guest]

Yes,

They are comparable to ACG.In fact ACG is better.

 

Coolcoin

[braddick]

CoolCoin- That was cruel. No one deserves to be slammed like that.

 

Take it back.

[GP_]

whoa coolcoin, that was low!

 

PCGS is definately having some kind of growing pains or something, their lack of consistancy is getting very very bad, and customer service, whats that.

[chrisfuccione]

With out accountability what is thier name worth. If they get a bad name they might as wel be ACG. CHRIS

[IrishMike]

I spent the first 18 years of my career analyzing companies and making recommendations on whether to loan money to them. A little math is involved in this, but with the advent of computers and the proliferation of data available on companies, comparisons became easy and quite frankly I became bored. I am not a numbers person, systems person or production management type. When my bank was purchased and ruined by the new owners, I took a hiatus from the industry to go to work for a national consulting firm to analyze potential vertical and horizontal purchases opportunities. Not being the numbers person I studied what their customers said about them. You know something, the acquisitions that became the most successful were those that scored high with their customers, I don't mean John Q Public but other companies that supplied to them or purchased from them.

 

You can analyze the heck out of numbers, management style, etc. but in the final analysis it comes done to customer loyalty. I could list 2 dozen examples of what creates this loyalty, but I won't bore everyone with this. I see that they (PCGS) have hired a new CEO from outside the industry. Time will tell, but I would strongly recommend that he get the competing factions together that put PCGS together, and knock a couple of them off their thrones.

When I first joined the forum at PCGS's site, the first thing that hit me was their arrogance in marketing and the lack of response to complaints. Accesssibility needs to be addressed. They also need marketing advice, these silly claims they continually make, such as the standard for the rare coin market, all time finest sets, etc. need to be based on factual data. At most major companies this is a serious no-no. I am currently employed at one of the largest banks in the country and these touted claims without reference to data to support it would cause me to be terminated.

 

I am so tired of hearing the excuse over there, that we are too busy to address this issue or this one. More than one time in my career I have gone face to face with a CEO and told them if you don't face issues when they arrive, they someone else will arrive to take your position. You believe they paid me a lot of money to tell them this.

 

As far as grading issues, perhaps they need to devlope a service oriented staff to address this problem. But I have to tell you that from their perspective, with all the dipping issues, AT issues they have their hands full. I sometimes wonder if one grading system for moderns and classics isn't full of pratfalls. Then I wonder if we collectors haven't really received what we asked for.

[dragon]

Well....I dunno if PCGS is toast or not, but they have definately lost credibility in my eyes over the past 24-36 months or so.

 

I posted a while back that I did a very informal survey at last years Central States show talking with many of the largest and highest profile dealers on the floor. I asked them their opinion of PCGS right now and here's what I got:

 

"Oh man, don't get me started with PCGS"

 

"We deal in PCGS coins but don't submit to them anymore"

 

"HERE MAN..look at these grades I just got back!!!"

 

"We have cut our submissions back sustantially"

 

etc.

 

The general concensus was that a LOT of big players were very unhappy with PCGS or stopped submitting to them completely. To be fair, a few people did say that they were still sending in coins and had noticed that they were a bit tougher right now but had no serious gripes with them.

 

One prominent silver dollar dealer told me that he had just submitted over 100 high end NGC Morgans to them for crossover at the show and only 7 got crossed, he was REALLY upset and said he felt he just totally wasted a LOT of money and that PCGS was full of %*. He then showed me a few of the expensive coins that didn't get crossed and they were definately nice for the grade.

 

I recently used my 4 free submisions from my CC membership and was totally disappointed with the grades as they were completely inconsistent with their past standards. I used to be able to predict how my coins were going to came back with nearly 100% accuracy, now I have no idea what they are going to call them.

 

Dragon

[IrishMike]

TDN: web page

[Guest]

Here is a fine example of their stupidity.

Here is some free advertisement for a company comparable to ACG.They don't know a Gymnist from a Marathon runner.

 

GO TO:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1395214052

 

Coolcoin

 

[davefperry]

Link to the auction.

PCGS may not be finished but they're getting desperate with stunts like the WTC death coins and grading the 1933 St. Gaudens without having it in their posession.

[coinman1794]

I see major varieties mislabeled on PCGS holders all the time. They always make mistakes on the label. I wounder how many times they typed in the wrong grade!

[shirohniichan]

The only problem is when the roles were switching, there were lots of fresh classic coins out there to be graded. Not so any more.

 

If I hear ONE MORE thread about "fresh classic" coins, I'm going to puke! PCGS is about crackouts, crossovers, and slabbing 2002-D coins in MS-68 and higher. That's where the market is!

[braddick]

For awhile I loved collecting these error PCGS insert slabs. It was funny to own a Kennedy half in a $ SBA holder. Now, that 'humor' has turned to embarrassment as so many of these leave the PCGS factory undetected there is no longer a premium or novelty to collecting them.

[RotatedRainbows]

I see major varieties mislabeled on PCGS holders all the time. They always make mistakes on the label. I wounder how many times they typed in the wrong grade!

 

It does make you wonder how many coins were graded 65 but mislabled 64 (especially when they are in their tight grading period) or a 65 or 66 mislabled a 66 or 67 (I have seen some iffy high grade pieces).

[Legend-migration]

There is no question PCGS is in a state of turmoil. If there ever is a text book case for brand distruction, David Hall is currently writing the "How to do it" book.

 

As dealers were getting sick of them. All we ask for is grading consistancy. NOT what the finalizers personal opinions are of what they THINK they'd like a coin to be graded. Either a coin makes the grade or doesn't. Don't grade it so that D. Hall can sell it.

 

And customer service? Someone should teach them what that means!

[Guest]

TDN,

 

PCGS < or = to ACG?

[braddick]

CoolCoin:

 

CoolCoin < or = to KinCoin?

 

 

[Guest]

Braddick,

 

Coolcoin > Kincoin. Whoever that is.

 

Coolcoin

[GP_]

braddick, I thought that at first as well, but then he went and ruined it by posting facts behind his statements! I may not agree with his opinion, but at least he shows where his opinions come from, and to me, that counts for something.

[EVillageProwler]

GP,

 

No one ever said that Kingcoin was stupid. In fact, I got the opinion that he was VERY intelligent. But, that doesn't mean that he won't clash with many people personality-wise...

 

But, we digress...

 

EVP

 

[keithdagen]

I leave for three days and overall, a relatively troll-free weekend. Not too bad.

[Oldtrader3]

IM: I was on several International Acquistion Teams for Off-Shore Operations. The company I worked for was a major Medical Device firm. I watched these acquisitions turn from Gold to S***, reverse alchemy if you will.

 

The company had great Strategic Planning through their relationship with Bob Hayes and Steven Wheelwright at H. B. S., but Harvard couldn't run their Operations. The Company could not execute! They had major market share, world-wide. However, they did not know their customer in these International Regions where they bought companies. They then put in their people in all the important roles, using US Business Models. By doing this, they lost their connection to their customers and failed.

 

I became so disillusioned, that I bailed out when (as a Cost Savings) they offered full retirement benefits to almost all Managers over 55 in my Division. I took the retirement package in cash, in my IRA, and have never looked back. In fact, this incentive retirement stripped (44) Senior Management people from the President down to all VP's and Director's and the Division's performance got worse. No S***, little Beaver!

 

This really has nothing to do with the NGC Registry. It has more to do with Bad Management decisions, not facing your customer, and complacency toward being the Market Leader. This was a formula for failure! They were not treating their customer's as the foundation of the business and it failed.

 

[braddick]

GP (and Keith), I agree.

I like CoolCoin. It's pretty easy to like someone who doesn't take himself or this hobby too seriously.

 

-He knows I was just playing in the above post.

[oreville-migration]

Personally a drop of PCGS from #1 to #2 will be all DH needs to see and hopefully wake up to. Will that be enough?

 

Now, NGC hasn't been so perfect either and they certainly have not resolved my customer complaints during these past few years. It is all about marketing and NGC has gotten the upper hand on the marketing for the moment.

 

Now if you talk about customer service, I rate NGC customer service as lousy as compared to PCGS fair score.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Oreville: I certainly respect your opinions and past experiences, but I see a concerted effort on NGC's part to erase past transgressions and be the consistent number one company in consistency, accuracy and customer service. The aren't 100% there yet (I still have to have words with them on Anaconda's twenty center), but they are trying very hard.

[IrishMike]

oreville, having been on the boards for only 8 months, this is the first post from anyone who claims PCGS's customer service is better, evidently for you it has been. But a look at most of the comments made, would indicate you are the exception rather than the rule. When is the last time you have seen PCGS attempt to rectify their customer service issues?