Giving a Talk on "Eliminating the Cent" Debate - Suggestions on What to Include?

[astrostu]

I talked with the president of our local coin club at our meeting and, assuming he actually remembers, I'm scheduled to give a talk at our January 2009 meeting on the current debate on whether or not to eliminate the 1¢ coin. Based on programs we've had in the past, the talk should be 45 minutes at the most.

 

When I give talks, I like to place the subject within a historic context, so I thought that I would split the presentation 50/50 with about 20 minutes talking about the first US cents and their evolution through present time (and of course talking about the 2009 anniversary versions). During this history, I would emphasize metallic composition, actual costs, and purchasing power.

 

The second half of the talk would actually address the debate, talking first on the side of getting rid of it (which I think makes logical sense (or "cents" if you want a pun), basically because of its minimal purchasing power and cost to produce. Then I'd talk about the side that wants to keep it (historic significance, we need to keep the Old Dead Men on coins and eliminating the cent eliminates one of 'em, "would hurt the poor" and charities, etc.).

 

If there's time, I thought then I could just open it up to the club so people could express their own opinions on this very relevant present-day issue, which I think is something that rarely happens with our programs.

 

So my questions for y'all are:

 

(1) Does this seem like a good way to approach the issue?

 

(2) Is there anything specifically that you think should be included (as in, do you feel very strongly about one of the reasons for keeping or getting rid of it, or a historic point that must be made?)?

 

Thanks for the input!

[thebeav]

Don't forget to include the inflation angle.

Along this line: The imbalance of the governments inflation equation, helping them to point out a lack of inflation.

Their reluctance to eliminate the cent, as this move would be an admission of inflation.

Sounds like a great idea for a presentation. Good luck with it.

 

Paul

[Houston Investor]

The cent and nickel should be eliminated. A $500, $1000, bill should be added at the very least. All coinage and currency designs should be overhauled to reflect national themes instead of presidents. Many current laws restricting the use of big bills in commerce or privacy should be repealed as this is a restriction of the freedoms this nation was founded on.

 

Our current monetary denominations are essentially based on 1934. A dollar then had at least 15x the purchasing power of today. Realizing that the dollar has become more worthless as time as gone on, that our freedoms have been eroded in favor of the corporate elite, and that the goals of globalization are more for the elite than the common American, I doubt the government will do anything to make any changes. The USA can't even protect its border let alone enforce its immigration laws. Recently while in California, I went thru a McDonalds drive thru and they needed an intrepreter to take my order as the person did not speak English - what a farce! No wonder it costs so much for people to live in Cali what with all the high taxes and all and then they support all these illegal scum? This is a disgrace - what are we going to do - deed the Southwest back to Mexico? The immigration laws should be AGGRESIVELY ENFORCED! Yet our election process is such a media sham that the leading contender for the Democratic nomination has been described as "the first terroist president" if he were to be elected. No wonder the President of Iran wants this guy to win.

[MTHead-migration]

[POLITICAL RANT] The cent and nickel should be eliminated. A $500, $1000, bill should be added at the very least. All coinage and currency designs should be overhauled to reflect national themes instead of presidents. Many current laws restricting the use of big bills in commerce or privacy should be repealed as this is a restriction of the freedoms this nation was founded on.

 

Our current monetary denominations are essentially based on 1934. A dollar then had at least 15x the purchasing power of today. Realizing that the dollar has become more worthless as time as gone on, that our freedoms have been eroded in favor of the corporate elite, and that the goals of globalization are more for the elite than the common American, I doubt the government will do anything to make any changes. The USA can't even protect its border let alone enforce its immigration laws. Recently while in California, I went thru a McDonalds drive thru and they needed an intrepreter to take my order as the person did not speak English - what a farce! No wonder it costs so much for people to live in Cali what with all the high taxes and all and then they support all these illegal scum? This is a disgrace - what are we going to do - deed the Southwest back to Mexico? The immigration laws should be AGGRESIVELY ENFORCED! Yet our election process is such a media sham that the leading contender for the Democratic nomination has been described as "the first terroist president" if he were to be elected. No wonder the President of Iran wants this guy to win. [/POLITICAL RANT]

[Zoins]

Don't forget to include the inflation angle.

Along this line: The imbalance of the governments inflation equation, helping them to point out a lack of inflation.

Their reluctance to eliminate the cent, as this move would be an admission of inflation.

Sounds like a great idea for a presentation. Good luck with it.

I agree. You should about the impact of admitting inflation to everyday Americans and the impact to politician careers.

[cladking]

...the sheer waste of handling billions of coins so that transactions are completed to a decimal point beyond sanity.

 

I've always thought it important that they are highly toxic as well.

[bsshog40]

It sounds to me like you have a good plan laid out for your discussion. Eevn with the costs of minting the cent and it's basic worthlessness, I still think for historic reasons that the cent should continue it's existence. But it wouldn't also surprise me that all coinage and currency start dissappearing in the future to make way for a no-cash society. I think there may always be a collector's market for the Mint, but soon all will turn to machine transactions. JMO

[WoodenJefferson]

This is not relevant to actual coinage, but rather the meeting in general with a few topics that could help you to have an pleasant experience.

 

I have given seminars before and when you open the floor for general discussion, all sorts of things can happen. Not that it’s not a good idea to do this, but you do loose control at times, especially if someone has an agenda to push. Peoples buttons can be pushed and all of a sudden they can be reluctant to yield and can get quickly argumentative and disgruntled. Do not be afraid to take back control of the discussion. Be diplomatic about it by tabling the measure for the next meeting or by putting that particular topic into a “parking lot“, so the club can return to it at a later date, just get your presentation back onto the right track and you will do just fine. Remember, this is your topic and keeping your topic going forward in the right direction is your responsibility.

 

Also, the moment you open the floor for discussion, a dead silence may prevail over the room, so make sure the “discussies” are aware from the very beginning what will be happening towards the end of the seminar. Also, as cheesy as it may seem, provide them with pencil and paper in case they would like to take notes during the presentation. Doing so will enable them to jot down a question or a point they might want to expound on or research at a later date.

 

At times, some people are reluctant to begin a open discussion so be prepared for this. Have remarks available that you could immediately drop to begin (jump start) the discussion. Once it starts rolling, you’ll have no problem getting others to respond, but keep it forward and in the direction of the main theme.

 

Know when your part of the meeting is over…stop then and don’t try to drag it out, you will loose interest in even the most avid collector. Return the floor back to the speaker who introduced you or to one of the officers of the club. Others will respect this and will cease even the strongest of ongoing debates.

 

Good luck and bring to the meeting your confidence and knowledge…oh yeah and most importantly, have fun!

 

Good luck…

 

~Woody~

 

Edit Note: re to this line:

 

talked with the president of our local coin club at our meeting and, assuming he actually remembers, I'm scheduled to give a talk at our January 2009 meeting on the current debate on whether or not to eliminate the 1¢ coin.

 

Present the President of your club, preferably during a meeting so it can be noted and logged, with a short note outlining of your presentation with a date the presentation is going to be presented. Ask for their "blessing" and be there at the meeting previous to January's, ask permission to speak to the club members and make a general annoucement about next months topic. This will go a long way with the members and their expectations.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Just a suggestion, you may want to do something like Power Point slide presentation of not more than (20) minutes total. With a well organized presentation to a varied age audience, it is often better to keep the presentation short and direct with questions at the end. Even on many engineering automation, seminars that I have given, I tried not to go over 20-25 minutes despite the complexity of the subject.

 

The church that we attend on Sunday only has (20) minute sermons because our Rector believes that you lose the audience's concentration over that time limit. This is all something to consider.

[Just Bob]

I would suggest that you present legitimate arguments representing both sides of the issue, without any hint of bias, regardless of your personal feelings on the subject. That way, the floor can be opened for true debate, without anyone feeling intimitated ,by your view , to voice their own opinion.

[Coin]

Think you might be able to tie-in the rounding up and down angle during purchases and sales? It is almost a given , that in all cases of rounding up and down , the seller adjusts the prices to get the best outcome ( my biased opinion ).

Ok , so there is tax involved and then the total could end up weird , but do you not think that a store owner will just go right ahead and price items all 2 cents higher so that the store will automatically get the upside prior to figuring in sales tax to the total so that they always come out on top regardless of whether the end amount is rounded up or down as they already got the 2 cents per item when they upped their original prices?

What are the ramifications to our paychecks if employers choose to round down our final paycheck amounts....could this just add to the company's bottom line at the end of the year versus the employees? Would this occur?

 

Obviously , the Gov't could find a cheaper base metal to coin with , so what is the real significant reason for the 'eliminating the cent' argument ? Is there a lobby somewhere pushing for this through an 'owned' political rep , if so ( who is sponsoring such a thing?) what other motivations are pushing this measure?

 

I'm sure there could be more ideas , but these are the ones that popped into my thoughts.

Also , some foreign unions use the 2 cent piece ...are we destined to some kind of 'America's ' union between South America , Central America , Mexico and Canada ...as part of some future trade deal of the america's that will push us closer to less US of America and more 'One World Order' through a financial positioning to align this region?

 

Edit:

Better yet , just keep to facts and offer both sides of the argument as Just-Bob suggests , I re-read my comment and now feel an urge to keep an eye over my shoulder in case 'big-brother' is coming.........way too much talk radio this week......must cut back....have to go hide in the fallout shelter ...see ya later , good-luck.

[physics-fan3.14]

Coin, you make 2 very good points that I was going to suggest he include. The rounding issue is one of the biggest reasons people do not want to eliminate the cent. Pointing at other countries which have already eliminated this coin can illuminate and illustrate what has already happened.

[Zoins]

You can also point out that although Congress stated that Milles could be used (10ths of a cent) for accounting, Milles and Half Cents are no longer in circulation. State tax tokens were denominated in Milles for a while.

[Conder101]

but do you not think that a store owner will just go right ahead and price items all 2 cents higher so that the store will automatically get the upside prior to figuring in sales tax to the total so that they always come out on top regardless of whether the end amount is rounded up or down as they already got the 2 cents per item when they upped their original prices?

And as the merchant down the block I don't add the two cents, and round honestly, then point out in my ads how the prices are consistently lower and you save money at my store. and take business away from my competitor.

[Coin]

Definitely , keep it clean an smooth by just showing an example of what has occurred with the change in 'change' elsewhere , but by all means , in a public speaking engagement , where you are bringing to light an issue , whereas it is not appropriate to give your own 'opinion' or political or other standing , but rather to engage an audience to see all sides of a change and allow the audience to form its own opinion , discuss the ideas and support them with examples gleamed from solid sources . As Just Bob offered , do not alienate the audience , yet engage them with readily available examples.

 

[Coin]

but do you not think that a store owner will just go right ahead and price items all 2 cents higher so that the store will automatically get the upside prior to figuring in sales tax to the total so that they always come out on top regardless of whether the end amount is rounded up or down as they already got the 2 cents per item when they upped their original prices?

And as the merchant down the block I don't add the two cents, and round honestly, then point out in my ads how the prices are consistently lower and you save money at my store. and take business away from my competitor.

 

Good point , not everyone is a shiester .

But , I'll bet today's business model is pure profit driven , and any loss is unacceptable at corporate levels . Listen to what the heads of the fuel industries are saying...they need to get their profits now while the getting is good because they MIGHT be facing a downturn(NPR public radio discussion where the heads of 5 of the largest oil and natural gas companies were before Congress discussing their extreme quartly profit margins).

 

The LCS's and Mom & Pops ( that Wally Worlds are displacing left and right) probably could advertise that they are not gouging , however , they are struggling to keep their doors open in today's economic environment.

 

Would not be a worthy point to bring up in PhysicsFans speaking engagement due to both time constraints and too many tangents and what-ifs.

 

[astrostu]

Thanks for all of the feedback that was constructive. I'll make sure to try to include those points in the presentation, and may aim to make it shorter than the 40-minutes but have extra slides in case people have questions.

 

As to controlling an audience and getting them into a discussion ... I TAed intro science labs for a year. I know how to handle a group .

 

Oh, and a timely CNN article today: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/06/coin.inflation.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

 

... with a lovely quote that I think is the most pragmatic from the government concerning the possible elimination:

 

"People still want pennies, which is why we're still making them," Moy said.

 

Even Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson acknowledged in a radio interview earlier this year that getting rid of the penny made sense but wasn't politically doable -- and certainly nothing he is planning to tackle during the Bush team's final months in office.

[World Colonial]

I think you have it under control and there are many good suggestions here. I would definitely make it clear that it is the government's debasement of the currency (subtle or not, depending upon your approach) which makes this discussion even necessary.

[cladking]

 

 

"People still want pennies, which is why we're still making them," Moy said.

 

Even Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson acknowledged in a radio interview earlier this year that getting rid of the penny made sense but wasn't politically doable -- and certainly nothing he is planning to tackle during the Bush team's final months in office.

 

We have a broken and obsolete currency system.

 

What makes anyone think people want pennies? Is it because banks demand seven billion a year for their customers? Is it because opinion polls consistently report that people want to keep pennies? Is it because we've been making the things for centuries?

 

Perhaps if we had a useable and vibrant currency system people wouldn't care about these coins. If dollar coins circulated there would be much more interest in avoiding pennies. If people were educated to learn everything wouldn't suddenly cost a few cents more and that taxes wouldn't go up then perhaps they would realize just how wasteful these coins are. If you ask someone if pennies should be eliminated most who say no are most probably thinking of all the pennies they get each year which they suddenly just wouldn't get any longer. They're thinking of the penny charity drives which would be shut down. But the simple fact is that if there were no pennies then you'd get more nickels back each year which would make up for the lost cents. Charity drives could collect nickels instead of worthless pennies.

 

They show a picture of millions of pennies gathered for charity but they don't show the pay loaders to scoop them up and the wasted man-hours counting them.

 

Pennies are a waste foisted on us by inertia, mining interests, and tradition. They will be with us until someone in government admits that making coins for a loss is monumentally stupid and handling coins without value is not a good use of Americans' time.

 

We're supposed to be the greatest economy in the world and we're over here counting pennies and trying to get paper currency into vending machines, or weighted down by a pocket full of quarters.

[Conder101]

Charity drives could collect nickels instead of worthless pennies.

Very true. And the charities could collect 80% fewer coins, with less handling, less personnel, less weight, overall much less headache all the way around, and still take in the same amount of money. If they took in any more than 20% of the number of coins they did before, they would actually make MORE money. My bet is if they eliminated the cent the charities now doing "penny drives" would actually take in more money.