The Great "Slab Scare".

[RI AL]

Good afternoon, guys.

 

Well, I guess I'm slightly bummed out after reading many informative posts here and the latest edition of Coin World on the topic of fake slabs. Though my U.S. type set is on hold until I win the lottery, I must confess to a bit of anxiety and disgust at what is happening as a whole in the coin market.

 

Ironically, the first alarm went off for me with the introduction of the "CAC Football" sticker. I didn't care one bit for that since I put so much faith in PCGS, NGC, ANACS...(I also like SEGS and ICG) ..I have some mongrel slabs in my collection as well. I say "ironically" because now, if I were an active buyer, I might just require the CAC sticker for new additions. I do NOT want to do that! The multitude of lousy certifying companies out there has soured me too and then comes the "China Syndrome" with the fakes. Maybe that's why I put the brakes, at least for a while on new U.S. type aquisitions and have concentrated on "low risk" foreign pieces.

 

On 3 recent occsasions I stumbled on sellers on e-Bay that I seriously questioned. These were foreign coins dealers; all from Asia but not limited to China. All 3 I reported to e-Bay. The give away for me was the amazing amount of detail on raw issues that are usually crude and not well struck, and, IDENTICAL toning (or coloration) on many issues from numerous different countries. I also was a bit leery of feedback that basically was private or said the same thing, over and over, with many items "sold" to the same buyer. I think I may have been burned (or at least lightly singed) with a $14 Tibet coin I bought last year so no big loss.

 

Anyway, I love this hobby...and I feel truly badly when it starts to hit the tank, as did silver bars (though recently the silver has been good), my son's baseball cards, and other collectibles. Why does someone always have to spoil a good thing?

 

Maybe someone should go into the slab certification business....hire some really good, honest guys and develop a guaranteed way to certify old slabs and new as having genuine coins. Oh....SLAP ...I guess that's CAC, huh? I'm not feeling all that confident at the moment with "regular" slabs. The RAW collecting days were SO much easier.

 

RI AL ...Just venting before the big "burn the mortgage papers" pizza party tonight with our really great neighbors.

[halfpint]

 

this can be very very frustrating! i heard recently that this has caused quite an increase in sales of high grade loupes for close examination for evidence of tampering!

[Lem]

Well I'm pretty sure if they are counterfeiting coins and slabs, it will not be long before they are counterfeiting CAC stickers to go with them fake coins and slabs. The whole thing is so

[WoodenJefferson]

Ours is not the only collector venue that has been hit by counterfeiters, past, present and future. In the art world today, there are rumblings galore!

 

“China's ability to turn what has long been an individual craft into a mass production industry may affect small-scale artists from Rome's Spanish Steps to the sidewalks along Santa Monica's beach in California, as well as many galleries and art colonies in between.

 

Artist groups in the United States are starting to express concern, questioning the originality of some Chinese paintings and whether they comply with American copyright laws.”

 

The November 17 broadcast of ABC World News Tonight ran this story: Chinese Counterfeits Pose Threats to U.S. Industry - Rip-Offs Include Everything From Golf Clubs to Van Gogh to Airplane Parts. It showed villages where Mona Lisa’s and Van Gogh’s are painted en masse.

 

Seems like anything and everything that will turn a buck is fair game for the Chinese right now and yet we still keep buying, looking for that "good deal" and getting burnt in the process.

 

[bsshog40]

Counterfieting has gone on a long time with anything that's worth money, even money. The only thing a person can really do is trust your own instincts. When in doubt, pass.

[realone]

What really troubles me about your post and something that I believe you need to also worry about

is that you like SEGS, now that is possibly scarier than the great slab scare. Try selling anything in a SEGS holder and getting any where near the money you most likely spent on it or thought you would get for it. At least when an ebay seller is from Asia I know to stay away or a red (no pun intended) flag goes off in my mind but why isn't there a red flag going off in your mind about SEGS?

 

Just consider this another public service announcement like the one you just started.

[bsshog40]

SEGS is actually considered a Second Tier Grading company. They are comparable with ICG in which both companies have a decent reputation. JMO

[TomB]

There is generally a reason a coin is in a SEGS holder.

[bsshog40]

There is generally a reason a coin is in a SEGS holder.

 

I agree, as with coins in an ANACS slab. But these are not near as bad as SGS, NNC, and so forth.

[MunkyMan95]

There is generally a reason a coin is in a SEGS holder.

 

I agree, as with coins in an ANACS slab. But these are not near as bad as SGS, NNC, and so forth.

 

I disagree about ANACS. They are (were, I don't know if they still are since the ICG fiasco) a very respectable grading company. ANACS is not always a last resort, in fact, sometimes I prefer them to NGC and PCGS.

[Oldtrader3]

I feel the same way as you do, RI AL, trying to sell any coins in the future may become difficult, CAC sticker or not. The Chinese that are running these counterfeit businesses have no scrubles, no morals or any personal boundaries except the extent of their greed and the investment monies they have to produce counterfeits of whatever. Something has to be done now to protect the integrity of coins, medals, art, antique furniture, food, medicines or whatever before all of their exports become suspect. If the TPG's can not protect us, we may have to go back to a raw coin market where knowledge and a sharp eye are our only protection.

 

The Chinese do understand enforcement, because they have spent their lives in a closely controlled political environment. We need to embargo all goods from China, unless they are inspected and certified by their (presently corrupt) government and our government to be genuine, fit to consume, wear, play with and even own. Our own government does not seem to have any interest in inspecting and protecting us from being poisoned by the food, drugs, make-up, tooth paste, toys, lead paint, lead jewelry or anything else that the unethical chinese vendors make. Until our own government puts pressure on China, nothing will change. The FDA and U.S. Customs Service needs to be staffed to inspect and protect us.

 

I worked in China over a period of several years and the only rules they obey are ones that they clearly understand will affect the saleability of their goods and their profit. Bribery and theft by deception is S.O.P. for many Chinese. I was offered cheap knock-off goods every time that I went out in the street anywhere in China by merchants with calculators handy, to communicate a negotiable starting price. Simply put, the solution is; inspection, consistant enforcement of standards and blanket rejection for nonconformance.

[Zoins]

SEGS is actually considered a Second Tier Grading company. They are comparable with ICG in which both companies have a decent reputation. JMO

Many people and organizations consider SEGS a step below ICG, including PNG dealers (through the annual surveys), Teletrade and eBay. Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Zoins]

I feel the same way as you do, RI AL, trying to sell any coins in the future may become difficult, CAC sticker or not.

Until the docs get better, DGS AuthentiVIEW / Visual Pop Report, may help. More TrueViews on the PCGS cert verification page will help as well.

[realone]

There is generally a reason a coin is in a SEGS holder.

 

 

Don't listen to me but please listen to Tom, he is right on as usual. SEGS sucks what ever tier level you think they be, just try to sell a SEGS holdered coin and you will hear about it, trust me, I have been there, and it only took me one purchase and 20 attempts to sell it, I eventually did but don't feel the urge to be put through that type of selling scenario.

[RGT]

I have had only one experience with a SEGS slab. I bought it on ebay and the seller didn't have a reserve. I won a bust half dime in a SEGS MS63 holder for $155 about two years ago. I was bidding on it as an AU and ended up paying a low price even as an AU. I sent it to ANACS and they called it an AU58.

 

Of course some here don't like ANACs so I guess it would lose another five points if I sent it to NGC and another five at PCGS so it's really an EF48.

 

My opinion of ANACS is that they are all over the place. I have some really nice coins in ANACS holders and I have seen many and even owned a few real dogs. I can also say the same about NGC and PCGS.

[realone]

SEGS MS63 downgraded to ANACS AU58, what type of holder if I may ask are we talking about here? Without knowing your reply I still have to say that the downgrade seems reasonable and predictable, glad you paid for low au but when you get in that grade range the numbers are all about the same anyway.

[just-john]

The Chinese Government recognizes the severity of the problem, recently concluding that up to 20% of the country's products are substandard or tainted.

DID YOU KNOW

1625 - 1650

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by India and France. During this period, the territorial domain of the Qing empire expanded substantially.

 

[edit] 1650 - 1675

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by India and France. From this time to about the 1800s, the seclusion of China on a world-scale grew to its peak during the Ming Dynasty after the Yung-lo emperor's reign in the 1400s.

 

[edit] 1675 - 1700

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by India and France.

 

[edit] 1700 - 1725

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by India and France. Collapse of the central authority of the Mughal Empire and the resultant chaos triggered India's long but slow decline on the world stage.

 

[edit] 1725 - 1750

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by India and France.

 

[edit] 1750 - 1775

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by India and France.

 

[edit] 1775 - 1800

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by India and France.

 

[edit] 1800 - 1825

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by India and France.

 

[edit] 1825 - 1850

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by the UK and India. Industrial revolution in the UK catapulted the nation to the top league of Europe for the first time ever.

 

[edit] 1850 - 1875

 

China was the world's largest economy followed by the USA, UK and India.

 

[edit] 1875 - 1900

 

USA was the world's largest economy followed by China, UK, Germany and India. Collapse of the central authority of the Qing Dynasty and the resultant chaos triggered China's short but rapid decline on the world stage. The gross domestic product of China in 1900 was estimated at about 50 per cent that of the USA.

 

[edit] Nationalist Republic

 

Main article: Economic history of the Republic of China

 

[edit] 1900 - 1925

 

USA was the world's largest economy followed by the UK, China, France, Germany, India and the USSR. The gross domestic product of China in 1925 was estimated at about 20 per cent that of the USA.

 

[edit] 1925 - 1950

 

USA was the world's largest economy followed by the USSR, UK, China, France, Germany, India and Japan. The gross domestic product of China in 1950 was estimated at about 10 per cent that of the USA.

 

[edit] People's Republic

 

Main article: Economic history of the People's Republic of China

 

[edit] 1950 - 1975

 

USA was the world's largest economy followed by the USSR, Japan, Germany and China. The gross domestic product of China in 1975 was estimated at about 10 percent that of the USA. Though Mao's collectivization reforms helped arrest the economic decline, China was no longer the largest Asian economy.

 

[edit] 1975 - 2000

 

USA was the world's largest economy followed by Japan, Germany and China. The gross domestic product of China in 2000 was estimated at about 10 per cent that of the USA. Capitalist reforms initiated by Deng Xiaoping in the early 1980s initiated the current wave of export-oriented economic expansion.

 

[edit] 2000 - Present

 

The gross domestic product of China in 2006 was estimated at about 20 percent that of the USA. It ranks as the fourth largest economy behind the US, Japan, and GermANY

[Conder101]

Maybe someone should go into the slab certification business....hire some really good, honest guys and develop a guaranteed way to certify old slabs and new as having genuine coins. Oh....SLAP ...I guess that's CAC, huh?

Actually CAC is supposed to be a guarantee of the grade not the slab or authenticity of the coin.

[MorganMan]

Maybe so. But CAC sticker fakes will be much easier for them to make than the fake slabs.

 

Sorry, but in MY book, CAC stickers are about as useless as teats on a boar hog.

 

MM

[James_OldeTowne]

If making fake slabs is now so easy for the scammers in China, you'd better believe that faking a CAC sticker is child's play. Under no circumstances would I suggest that a CAC sticker equates to a genuine slab without some assurance that the sticker is genuine as well!

 

So, maybe there's room in the market for someone to certify stickers?

 

[PerryHall]

There is generally a reason a coin is in a SEGS holder.

 

I agree, as with coins in an ANACS slab. But these are not near as bad as SGS, NNC, and so forth.

 

Some people use ANACS because they don't want to pay to join a club in order to get a few coins slabbed.

[RGT]

SEGS MS63 downgraded to ANACS AU58, what type of holder if I may ask are we talking about here? Without knowing your reply I still have to say that the downgrade seems reasonable and predictable, glad you paid for low au but when you get in that grade range the numbers are all about the same anyway.

 

If you mean what type of ANACS holder, I sent the coin in about two years ago, a few months after the "New Day" started. They were actually grading pretty conservatively for classic coins at the time though I hear that modern grading had loosened up a good bit.

 

There is generally a reason a coin is in a SEGS holder.

 

I agree, as with coins in an ANACS slab. But these are not near as bad as SGS, NNC, and so forth.

 

Some people use ANACS because they don't want to pay to join a club in order to get a few coins slabbed.

 

That's part of the reason I sent ANACS some coins. The other part was the reholder/regrade service they were doing at the time. I sent three batches of coins in and included a few raw or cracked out coins for grading at the same time. In the first two batches I had some coins downgraded, which they compensated me for, and a few upgraded. The third and last batch was about a year ago after James Taylor left and they apparently changed their policy. All of those coins were simply reholdered with no change in grade even though at least one was clearly cleaned. I guess trying to clean up their past mistakes was getting too costly. Now I'm even more skeptical about the new holders than I am about the old ones, which is sad since most of my ANACS coins are now in the new holders. I haven't seen any of the latest style of holder so I can't comment on how they are grading currently.

 

I don't send coins in often but if I need any more graded I will likely take them to the B&M dealer and have him send them to NGC or PCGS.

[just-john]

Join the ANA for 36 bucks and you can send them to NGC yourself

Liked ANACS but now with the tv guy selling rolls of president dollars with the ANACS sticker saying ms 63 for less than You or Me could get 3 coins makes me question what's the point

[Conder101]

Is ANACS slabbing rolls now too? So far all I've seen are Blanchard, ICG, and PCGS slabbed rolls. Are the ANACS rolls opaque like the ICG rolls were or are they transparent like the PCGS rolls?

[jtryka]

How long before the Chinese come up with a really convincing CAC sticker?