This really annoys me, but what r your thoughts?

[MBA101]

Beautiful 1821 Bustie in an old Fattie sells for $ 51,750 in January.

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=454&Lot_No=2868

 

Buyer re-holders it and it goes from MS 66 to MS 67*

 

Now he re-sells it, or is trying to sell it on Heritage in current auction for 115K (100K reserve, and not met).

 

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1102&Lot_No=650

 

Opinions?

[MunkyMan95]

It didn't just go from MS66 to MS67*, it went from MS66 to SP67*. I believe that the buyer thought that this coin was a proof, sent the coin to NGC, and they agreed that it was a special strike.

[jgrinz]

Sounds like someone knew his coins and is going to make real nicely

 

[WoodenJefferson]

It appears this coin was originally mis-identified at one time, (to the best of the grading services ability at the time) turns out it is a one-of-a-kind!

 

Auction description:

 

This piece is the specific McPherson, Empire coin that Breen mentioned. The problem with his description is that this is not O-102, but actually O-103, and therefore the reverse die is not the same as 1820 Reverse E that was used for O-106 of the earlier year.

 

While Breen mentioned the existence of several proof examples, we believe that this coin is the only proof O-103 that exists. It has been documented as a proof for over half a century, and possibly long before that.

 

[jackson64]

good job by the buyer for recognizing this rarity and hope he does well in the auction..

[gmarguli]

Why would it annoy you? Because someone else is making money off their knowledge?

 

The original buyer had some balls and he's being rewarded for it.

[CHABSENTIA]

That would be my feelings also. I read in Coin World a few weeks ago where a guy bought a Morgan with a VAM 14.20 which is pretty rare. He was only able to examine it in hand and wasn't sure. He won it for $50.00 and was able to check it better. It is a 14.20 VAM and he has been offered $10,000.00 for it already,.

 

 

 

The guy wasn't sure but took the chance. In this case the Buyer either recognized it from the Scans or afterwards. It is his right.

[MBA101]

What annoys me is the previous buyer setting the market, and not allowing market forces to set the market. If the coin is truly worth what he is asking, then potential buyers would bid the coin up to that level. There is no precedence for this coin, therefore one cannot make up a price out of thin air.

 

If it does happen to sell, fine, but the coin has not changed since the last auction, only the holder has.

 

Besides, isn't the point of finding a rarity such as this and purchasing it, keeping it and enjoying it?

[MarkFeld]

Why would it annoy you? Because someone else is making money off their knowledge?

 

The original buyer had some balls and he's being rewarded for it.

It annoys me too, but not because someone who stepped up and paid what appeared to be a big price might make a lot of money. It bothers me because, while the coin is absolutely wonderful looking and displays PL surfaces, it doesn't look like a "Proof" or a "specimen". I'm not the only one who examined it and feels that way. But if we are mistaken in our opinions and the coin is so obviously something special, it should have been designated as such previously.

 

Inconsistencies of this type/magnitude are extremely unfair and reflect poorly upon the grading companies and the hobby. Such designations should also be avoided unless there is clear and convincing (pun intended) proof of the coin's special status. By the way, the fact that Breen or a previous cataloguer called it such and such doesn't qualify.

[MarkFeld]

What annoys me is the previous buyer setting the market, and not allowing market forces to set the market. If the coin is truly worth what he is asking, then potential buyers would bid the coin up to that level. There is no precedence for this coin, therefore one cannot make up a price out of thin air.

 

If it does happen to sell, fine, but the coin has not changed since the last auction, only the holder has.

 

Besides, isn't the point of finding a rarity such as this and purchasing it, keeping it and enjoying it?

The previous buyer didn't set the market by himself - market forces (including other bidders) did. He should be free to reserve it at whatever price he wishes, while potential bidders are free to bid or pass on it.

 

A dealer bought it in order to try to make a profit, so it was a foregone conclusion that he wasn't going to be "keeping and enjoying it".

[James_OldeTowne]

What annoys me is the previous buyer setting the market, and not allowing market forces to set the market. If the coin is truly worth what he is asking, then potential buyers would bid the coin up to that level. There is no precedence for this coin, therefore one cannot make up a price out of thin air.

 

If it does happen to sell, fine, but the coin has not changed since the last auction, only the holder has.

 

Besides, isn't the point of finding a rarity such as this and purchasing it, keeping it and enjoying it?

Part of the point of finding such a rarity may be to identify it and make it available for others.

 

As for the grade increasing, proof (specimen) coins are graded to different standards from business strike coins. Therefore, it isn't necessarily a sign of inconsistency that the grade of the coin changed.

 

Finally, the thinking on what makes a coin a "specimen" may well have changed over the last ten years, since the coin was first certified.

 

I don't decry the fact that someone was sharp enough to make a load of money on a coin. I do understand your point, though, about how the price of the coin is being established. In an ideal world, Yes, it would be started off at a penny with no reserve, and given sufficient free market reach, the coin would then achieve it's proper value.

[MBA101]

 

I don't decry the fact that someone was sharp enough to make a load of money on a coin. I do understand your point, though, about how the price of the coin is being established. In an ideal world, Yes, it would be started off at a penny with no reserve, and given sufficient free market reach, the coin would then achieve it's proper value.

 

The money has not been made yet, only a price has been set arbitrarily.

[MarkFeld]

What annoys me is the previous buyer setting the market, and not allowing market forces to set the market. If the coin is truly worth what he is asking, then potential buyers would bid the coin up to that level. There is no precedence for this coin, therefore one cannot make up a price out of thin air.

 

If it does happen to sell, fine, but the coin has not changed since the last auction, only the holder has.

 

Besides, isn't the point of finding a rarity such as this and purchasing it, keeping it and enjoying it?

Part of the point of finding such a rarity may be to identify it and make it available for others.

 

As for the grade increasing, proof (specimen) coins are graded to different standards from business strike coins. Therefore, it isn't necessarily a sign of inconsistency that the grade of the coin changed.

 

Finally, the thinking on what makes a coin a "specimen" may well have changed over the last ten years, since the coin was first certified.

 

I don't decry the fact that someone was sharp enough to make a load of money on a coin. I do understand your point, though, about how the price of the coin is being established. In an ideal world, Yes, it would be started off at a penny with no reserve, and given sufficient free market reach, the coin would then achieve it's proper value.

James, please don't use the terms "proof" and "specimen" synonymously, by writing "proof (specimen) " And why/how would "the thinking on what makes a coin a "specimen" may well have changed over the last ten years, since the coin was first certified."? You're being too easy.

[gmarguli]

Inconsistencies of this type/magnitude are extremely unfair and reflect poorly upon the grading companies and the hobby. Such designations should also be avoided unless there is clear and convincing (pun intended) proof of the coin's special status. By the way, the fact that Breen or a previous cataloguer called it such and such doesn't qualify.

 

What is a Specimen? Isn't it just a term given to unusual/special looking coins? They're not proofs as no records of proofs are known and they're not MS as they look too different, so let's call them Specimen.

[kryptonitecomics]

My take on it is this....and I know a bit about the pressure to resubmit from a collectors point of view....

 

From a dealers point of view profit is the bottom line and I don't fault anyone for that as we are all trying to make a living. If dealer (A) pays a premium for a coin they think will upgrade, take the monetary risk, incur the cost of resubmission etc....I have no problem with them being rewarded for such efforts and in the end the market will set the price for the coin. It will either go unsold at this price point and have to be priced cheaper or someone will step up and shell out the money and the coin will indeed be worth 100K.

 

For a collectors perspective.....most folks know that I puchased quite a few old NGC Fatty slabbed coins and I know for a fact that some would upgrade. I bought the coins for my collection but I also know my finances aren't where I need them to be so there is always a concern that I may have to sell. If I sell in the current holders then I can expect a small premium for the coins becuase they are in older holders.....if I resubmit and the coins upgrade then I can make a lot more money when it comes time to sell.

 

So do I:

1. Resubmit prior to selling and profit more vs letting the next guy potentially resubmit and double their money?

2. Never think about selling the coins no matter what

3. Leave the historical heritage of the holdered coin alone and just sell the coin at whatever price point the market will bare, don't concern myself with the fact that others will most likely resubmit the coin anyway.

4. Sell them with a reserve that would be closer to the next higher price to protect myself......risk the coin not selling

 

You see the delima.....I don't want to be the evil one to sacrifice another old holder....but I am not wealthy enough to leave money on the table either. Right now I am going with option 2 for as long as I can (thumbs u

[James_OldeTowne]

James, please don't use the terms "proof" and "specimen" synonymously, by writing "proof (specimen) "

Oops! Mark, you are correct. For clarification, I was trying to shorthand "proof or specimen" strikings. There is indeed a difference between the two!

 

And why/how would "the thinking on what makes a coin a "specimen" may well have changed over the last ten years, since the coin was first certified."? You're being too easy.

 

 

What is a Specimen? Isn't it just a term given to unusual/special looking coins? They're not proofs as no records of proofs are known and they're not MS as they look too different, so let's call them Specimen.

Greg, it's the assumption, or belief, that a coin was struck in a special manner. For example, the coin may have been struck off of normal, business-strike dies, but the planchet may have been specially polished or treated prior to striking.

 

Unfortunately, as you and Mark have indicated, it is often an unproven assumption on the part of the numismatist that a coin was "specially" struck.

[MarkFeld]

Inconsistencies of this type/magnitude are extremely unfair and reflect poorly upon the grading companies and the hobby. Such designations should also be avoided unless there is clear and convincing (pun intended) proof of the coin's special status. By the way, the fact that Breen or a previous cataloguer called it such and such doesn't qualify.

 

What is a Specimen? Isn't it just a term given to unusual/special looking coins? They're not proofs as no records of proofs are known and they're not MS as they look too different, so let's call them Specimen.

If the term "specimen" doesn't have a specific meaning, it shouldn't be awarded, on a whim, or otherwise. The "PL" designation is a readily available alternative.

 

Edited to add: While I doubt it is evident from my posts to this thread, I am somewhat sympathetic to the dilemma the grading services face if/when they later become aware of additional information regarding a coin they have previously graded.

[123cents]

Doesn't this coin belong to Donald Kagin??

[MarkFeld]

Doesn't this coin belong to Donald Kagin??

I am under the impression that it does not belong to him.

[jtryka]

Unfortunately, as you and Mark have indicated, it is often an unproven assumption on the part of the numismatist that a coin was "specially" struck.

 

All my coins were specially struck, just for me...

[TomB]

It doesn't both me; no one is forced to bid upon the lot.

[MarkFeld]

It doesn't both me; .....

Tom, it appears that your split personality is surfacing again

[TomB]

[bigmoose-migration]

I agree completely with Mark Feld. I viewed this coin at the pre FUN Show auction viewing. It appeared to me to be a very nice coin but in no way did it resemble a proof or even a "specimen" striking. This used to be a very nice gem mint state Bust Half in an old NGC "fattie" holder. Now it is a "trick" coin in a "SP67" holder, whatever that means. This is just the type of coin that some gullible collector with more money than brains will get struck with.

[Tradedollarnut]

Wonder if it will get a sticker.

[kryptonitecomics]

Wonder if it will get a sticker.

 

My thought is.....and based on never seeing the coin....that if a coin gets an upgrade....it's probably not solid for the grade...might be a 67.3 etc.....so that would eliminate it from getting a sticker. I know that just becuase a coin upgrades doesn't mean it can be solid for the next grade level.....just guessing that this coin is a low 67 from what others have said

[michael]

the power of plastic

 

sell it raw and see what it brings

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Wonder if it will get a sticker.

 

My thought is.....and based on never seeing the coin....that if a coin gets an upgrade....it's probably not solid for the grade...might be a 67.3 etc.....so that would eliminate it from getting a sticker. I know that just becuase a coin upgrades doesn't mean it can be solid for the next grade level.....just guessing that this coin is a low 67 from what others have said

 

I don't think that's necessarily true - especially if from an old holder. For instance, I have an 1885 dime in an old fatty holder that is a lock 68, shot 69. If it upgraded to 68, it would still get the sticker.

 

My comment pertained more to the specimen status than the numerical upgrade.

 

[MarkFeld]

My comment pertained more to the specimen status than the numerical upgrade.

Ditto. Bruce, you neglected to say what the current grade is for your 1885 dime I'm guessing MS67?

[Tradedollarnut]

My comment pertained more to the specimen status than the numerical upgrade.

Ditto. Bruce, you neglected to say what the current grade is for your 1885 dime I'm guessing MS67?

 

Yes, MS67. With the coveted gold sticker!