How important is a pedigreed coin to you?

[ER]

To me personally, none. That is, I will not pay extra money for that pedigree on the slab. JMHO. What do you think?

James and Dennis, fire away!

[Tradedollarnut]

Varying from no importance to extreme importance. For example, I have a copper 1836 Gobrecht from the Hoagy Carmichael sale. That provenance adds no value to me, but I'm very happy to know it. I also have the Amon Carter 1838 Gobrecht, a provenance that adds perhaps 25% to the value I assign to the coin. And finally, I'm on the hunt for either the Andrew Jackson or Christian Gobrecht personal specimens, and I would expect to pay a premium of perhaps 100% for the provenance.

 

There is no set value added, each situation is different.

[nwcs]

About as important as an ordinary rock.

[EZ_E]

I'd like to have an Eliasberg pedigree just out of recognition of his accomplishment, o/w they don't matter much to me. However, if I had a choice between a pedigreed and a non pedigreed coin for the same price/grade, then I'd choose the pedigreed one. I'd imagine that most individuals would feel this way given the choice.

[BillJones]

I don't pay much attention to pedigrees. If I like the coin or token, I buy it. If I don't, I don't. I won't pay a premium for the fact that some past owner was famous, which means my pedigreed collection may have hit wall.

 

Most of my pedigreed coins, if you want to call them that, are plate coins from famous reference works like Breen's Encyclopedia, Bolender and Fuld's Civil War token book. At the time I bought the coins, it was not a big deal, just mentioned, and in one case I discovered that it was a plate coin after the fact.

 

One thing I would advise anyone who pays is premium for pedigreed coins is to VERIFY that the coin really is THE RIGHT COIN. As we have seen in the past notations on the slabs are not always correct.

[Wihlborg]

Not important to me at all. While it might be interesting to own a coin that a famous collector once owned, I would never pay a premium for a pedigree.

 

John

 

[CarlWohlforth]

I think a pedigree is interesting. The more I know about a coin the better. I can't think of many cases where I will pay more for a pedigree, but I always like to know.

[gmarguli]

If it is a useless pedigree like PCGS gives out to practically any registry set then it is a negative and I will subtract what it will cost me to have the coin reholdered without the pedigree from what I am willing to pay.

 

If it is a pedigree of mediocrity like Binion or Bass then I wouldn't pay any premium for it.

 

If it is a famous pedigree where I respect the collection and/or collector then I might pay a few percent.

 

[Tassa-migration]

If it is a useless pedigree like PCGS gives out to practically any registry set then it is a negative and I will subtract what it will cost me to have the coin reholdered without the pedigree from what I am willing to pay.

 

If it is a pedigree of mediocrity like Binion or Bass then I wouldn't pay any premium for it.

 

If it is a famous pedigree where I respect the collection and/or collector then I might pay a few percent.

 

 

Same here.

[mark]

Greg:

 

It's amusing the wide range of opinions that people have. Personally, I'd pay some premium for a Bass coin, because I respect the individual and what he did for the ANS. Indeed, currently I am reading slowly (very slowly) through the book that Bowers wrote about Bass and his collection. But, the fact that for a Bass coin I'd pay a small positive premium and you'd pay a small negative premium is an example of why different people are willing to pay different prices for the same coin.

 

Mark

 

 

[gmarguli]

Greg:

 

It's amusing the wide range of opinions that people have. Personally, I'd pay some premium for a Bass coin, because I respect the individual and what he did for the ANS. Indeed, currently I am reading slowly (very slowly) through the book that Bowers wrote about Bass and his collection. But, the fact that for a Bass coin I'd pay a small positive premium and you'd pay a small negative premium is an example of why different people are willing to pay different prices for the same coin.

 

Mark

 

I wouldn't pay less for a Bass coin, but I wouldn't pay more. This guy had rolls of low grade unc Morgans that are now in PCGS slabs with the pedigree. To me that ruined the pedigree for any nice coins he had.

 

And I feel the same way about Eliasberg with his junky coin rolls that were pedigreed. However, the fact that he had a complete set and his stature in the coin industry well outweights the fact that there are junky coins pedigreed to him. I wouldn't pay a premium for a 1943-S 10c in MS64 just because his name is on the slab. I might pay more for a 1799 $ in AU55 if his name were on the slab. It would depend on the coin.

[Hoot]

I like knowing what the chain of custody, so to speak, is for any coin. In that sense, the pedigree is interesting. In the case of the kinds of coins that TDN buys, there may be something to the monetary value added due to provenance, as those coins have changed hands so rarely, for the most part. For the types of coins that I collect, the change of hands has been more rapid and I think that diminishes the monetary value a bit. Still, I'd like to know if my coins were ever part of a terrific set, especially one of a famous collector. I recently had the Fivaz pedigree added to my 1928-S buffalo nickel; not because it will increase the monetary value of the coin, but because it improves the value of knowing its provenance. (Bill Fivaz has done tremendous work in this hobby and also put together one of the most spectacular sets of buffalo nickels of all time. I won this nickel in auction in Baltimore this summer.)

 

Hoot

[TonerGuy]

If it is a useless pedigree like PCGS gives out to practically any registry set then it is a negative and I will subtract what it will cost me to have the coin reholdered without the pedigree from what I am willing to pay.

 

If it is a pedigree of mediocrity like Binion or Bass then I wouldn't pay any premium for it.

 

If it is a famous pedigree where I respect the collection and/or collector then I might pay a few percent.

 

I concur with Greg's logic and thoughts on this one.

 

Michael

[MikeKing]

Pedigrees can either mean something or nothing to me.

If it's a common coin and there are a lot of pedigrees with that person's name on it out there, I wouldn't pursue it. But if it's a coin I really like, I will pursue it, not for the pedigree, but for what the coin is. Sometimes, the pedigree becomes really important, such as in a rarity 7 or 8, and you can trace the history of the coin, whether it be through stories, or old auction catalogues, and the like. THAT to me, is really really exciting. Getting to know something about the people involved in the movement of that coin. But I find that is the icing on the cake, not the goal. Although, who knows...

[EZ_E]

Many collectors have a romantic view when it comes to collecting. For instance, Buddy Ebsen's favorite coin was a worn $50 California gold slug. He once said that he used to handle the coin in admiration of its heft and would often wonder who had handled the coin in its past, what transactions occurred, etc. Perhaps the imagination provided the romance involved more so than if he actually did know its true history.

 

My point is that pedigrees can fill in this void and provide a glimpse of the coin's past, especially when there is a long, continuous documention of the coin's previous owners.

 

Yet, a majority of the responses in this thread are indifferent to a pedigree. Is this because of the negativity concerning pedigrees that was recently addressed by Jade Coin or is it because the knowing robs the romance fueled by the imagination?

[James_OldeTowne]

For me, a coin pedigreed to a famous collection would hold no premium value. It just doesn't matter to me that some guy with huge financial resources or infinite access to the world's finest coins was able to put together a particular complete collection in high grade is just not that impressive. Anybody with, say, $10 million at his disposable ought to be able put together a "famous" or "registry quality" set.

 

But a coin whose provenance includes past collectors or numismatists who actually made contributions to the hobby (as opposed to the coffers of the World's Largest Coin Dealers) and enriched our world with their knowledge, that holds great value for me. Good examples: Logan, Bolender, Newman, Wright, etc.

 

Norweb wouldn't hold extra value for me, nor would Eliasberg. Bass might (if I had interest in gold) because of his research and writing.

 

All that said, I can certainly respect why other collectors value certain pedigrees for their own reasons.

 

James

[nwcs]

>Yet, a majority of the responses in this thread are indifferent to a pedigree. Is this because of the negativity concerning pedigrees that was recently addressed by Jade Coin or is it because the knowing robs the romance fueled by the imagination?

 

Neither. It's just that I'm not all that concerned with who owned it previously except in rare cases of significant historical figures. For example, a coin that could be verified to be owned by one of the founding fathers would have a significant premium to me. But a high profile collector of a past age isn't that important to me. I felt this way regarding provenances of all sorts even before I collected coins.

 

For example, I would greatly enjoy an authentic Egyptian ushabti regardless of whose tomb it was found in. But if the tomb happened to be Rameses II, then it has added value. But if all I know about it was that Dr. Kent Weeks owned it, it would be interesting to know but of little extra value if any. Even though Weeks is quite famous in his own right as an archaeologist.

 

Neil

[Wihlborg]

Hi Victor,

 

The reason I don't really care about a pedigree is because I buy a coin because ‘I’ like it, not because someone else once owned it. That is why I said that I would not pay a premium for a pedigree. I would buy a coin with a pedigree if I liked it, I just would not pay a premium for it. As a matter of fact I own a coin with a pedigree (Benson) that I paid no premium for. It was bought based on the merits of the coin and not because someone else’s name is on the holders label and to tell the truth, I could not care less that the coin has a pedigree. It is a very well struck coin with beautiful toning and outstanding luster, and that is what I care about.

 

John

 

[EVillageProwler]

The provenance of an "important" coin is very important to me. I don't wish to argue over the specific of what "important" means in this context, as it easily varies in terms of situation and people. At times, the provenance can mean a great deal to me, such that I'm willing to pay TDN-esque premiums.

 

As for such and such appellation on the slab insert, then my thoughts are similar to Greg's.

 

EVP

 

[Oldtrader3]

I only own one pedigreed coin (an 1870, PCGS 3 cent silver). It is pedigreed from the Floyd Starr Collection, auctioned by Stack's. I did not pay a premium for the coin and would not have.

[michael]

for me most all of the time not important at all .......in 95% of the cases

 

i guess there might be occasion where it might be but it all depends

 

which for me would be an uncommon occurance but it is possible

 

michael

[Newmismatist]

I have owned pedigreed coins, (1909 Eliasberg Proof $20 Gold - Roman Proof St. Gaudens, also an 1868 Ty2 Proof $20 Liberty from the Amon Carter collection, plus several others that I'd have to look at old purchase records to see who previously owned them). To the best of my knowledge, I paid for the coin, and nothing for the former ownership.

 

My favorite pedigree is one of imagination: I've owned many ancient gold coins struck during the reign of Alexander the Great: As they were struck from the captured Persion gold after his great victories over Darius, they were most likely used to pay his soldiers as they marched through the Persian Empire, over the Khyber pass (modern day Afganistan) and into the Indus Valley in Ancient India. I once owned a spectacular Distater (the $50 "slug" of the time), struck during Alexander's lifetime - maybe he personally gave it to one of his generals in honor of one of his victories! I'll never know, but that's one hell of a provenance! No famous collector owned those coins, but think of the wonders and history that they "saw" !! THAT'S a Provenance!!

 

[EVillageProwler]

Did you know that the region of what is modern day Afghanistan is the birthplace of Buddhism? And, that it is the final resting place of one of the lost tribes of Israel (now known to us as Pathans)? Ironically, the Taliban are the descendants of the ancient Israelites.

 

The language of the Taliban is primarily Pashto, which is technically an Indo-European language. But, it is written with the Arabic alphabet. My guess is that Pashto is a derivative of ancient Hebrew and Persian, and the use of the Arabic alphabet is a much later by-product from the expansion of Islam.

 

All this predates Alexander's march through the Khyber Pass and into India, at which his army suffered their only military defeat. That is probably the subcontinent's greatest claim in military history.

 

The Khyber Pass stymied many an invader (in either direction), including the British in the 1800's and the Soviets in the Cold War. But, for all the notable military failures of the ancient Persians, the Khyber Pass did NOT stop them from becoming maharaji over too much of the subcontinent.

 

EVP

 

[MikeKing]

Did you know that the region of what is modern day Afghanistan is the birthplace of Buddhism?

 

Do you have a source.

 

I always thought that Buddha's mortal name was Gautama who was born in present day Nepal.

 

It was my understanding, after finding enlightenment, his mission included northern India.

 

[proofs03-migration]

It would seem that anyone would want to know the history behind every coin. I am sure that the value of who owned the coin may be a factor of how much money you can make off of a name, but say someone like Binion, I believe the sets that go from the treasury to him and then you is nice to know how it got there. I am not referring to the crime that made the collection, but look at all the grading services making huge amounts of money for something me as a collector enjoys doing, and I believe my numbers are as good as theirs if it is my specialty. How would it feel to own a Brennen coin. I wonder how many are out there in collections today. Now that is history.

[EVillageProwler]

Do you have a source.

 

No, I do not.

 

Yes, Prince Gautama was born in Nepal. But, I don't believe that Buddhism (the philosophy, religion or whatever) was founded there. According to buddhanet.net, Gautama left his father's kingdom on his voyage of self-discovery. From that web site, it seems that it was merely some place outside of what is now Nepal. The exact location at which he started to preach balance is unspecified.

 

So, on that note, I should admit that I am quite possibly wrong about saying that Afghanistan is the birthplace of Buddhism. And, by "modern day Afghanistan", I meant the region that is now known as Afghanistan, as opposed to by a previous name (that I keep forgetting!). And, Afghanistan, according to Afghan historians, cover much of Pakistan.

 

Pakistan is a very young nation. Afghanistan, on the other hand, is an ancient civilization with a very rich history that is also very bloody due to its status as a crossroad. In fact, the land is so old and the name Afghan is so old that my friend (from a Kabuli clan) doesn't even know the meaning or extended etymology of that word.

 

All m-w.com tells me is that it's a Pashto word derived from a Persian word. It directed me to a link at britannica.com, but I'm not a subscriber of that site.

 

EVP

 

[zzpot-migration]

Bill you hit it on the head !

 

I don't pay much attention to pedigrees. If I like the coin or token, I buy it. If I don't, I don't. I won't pay a premium for the fact that some past owner was famous, which means my pedigreed collection may have hit wall.

 

 

No telling on some of the older coin just which famous and unfamous ppl have used or owned these coins......

 

But.......................

 

Look for the ZZPOT Collection coming out soon............

 

laterz

[Newmismatist]

Did you know that the region of what is modern day Afghanistan is the birthplace of Buddhism? And, that it is the final resting place of one of the lost tribes of Israel (now known to us as Pathans)? Ironically, the Taliban are the descendants of the ancient Israelites.

 

The language of the Taliban is primarily Pashto, which is technically an Indo-European language. But, it is written with the Arabic alphabet. My guess is that Pashto is a derivative of ancient Hebrew and Persian, and the use of the Arabic alphabet is a much later by-product from the expansion of Islam.

 

All this predates Alexander's march through the Khyber Pass and into India, at which his army suffered their only military defeat. That is probably the subcontinent's greatest claim in military history.

 

The Khyber Pass stymied many an invader (in either direction), including the British in the 1800's and the Soviets in the Cold War. But, for all the notable military failures of the ancient Persians, the Khyber Pass did NOT stop them from becoming maharaji over too much of the subcontinent.

EVP

 

An Historian in our Midst!! - For the most part yes, I did. I'm not sure about it being the birthplace of Buddhism as I think it originated in what is now present-day Nepal. I collect Kushan gold coins, a wonderful series which starts around 166AD with Wima Kadphisis, and parallels the Roman empire from Marcus Aurelius to about Diocletion. Kushan coinage has several coins with "portraits" of Buddha, very rare and expensive. The Kushans basically took over the dying Bactrian empire, which was Indo-Greek, having been "founded" by Alexander the Great, when he passed through the Hindu-Kush. A fascinating period of History, in an area often crossed, but never really "conquered". There is a great movie, "The Man Who Would Be King", directed by John Houston, staring Michael Caine and Sean Connery ,which is based on a novella by Rudyard Kipling that takes place in this area and results in Connery becoming "King" because the local natives believe him to be Alexander the Great re-incarnate. Worth renting if you enjoy History! (Sorry that this is but it's something worth mentioning for the Historians amoung us)

[SilverEagleCoins]

Depends. For me there is no value to owning a pedigree but for the people who like to view my collection there may be some interest. However most of my family and freinds are not collectors so names like Eliasburg mean nothing to them. However if I had a coin that had a more popular owner/history, say thrown into the crowd by Brittany Spears at a concert or sold by Ben Affleck's personal collection, then maybe that would generate some interest. It's hard to justify paying a premium when such a small number of people even understand it.