Red, Red Brown and Brown

[MikeKing]

What are the defining features to distinguish one from the other?

I recently submitted two PCGS half cents labeled RB, for crossover to NGC and they were rejected as not being truly RB?

 

 

[TomB]

Grading services play fast-and-loose with this designation.

[jom]

Red, Red Brown and Brown = Guess, Guessing and Guessingest.

 

jom

[gmarguli]

It depends on when it was graded and that is assuming the coin hasn't turned in the slab.

 

RD can equal anywhere from 60% RD to 100%.

 

RB can be anywhere from 25% RD to 99% RD.

 

BN can be 0% RD to 50%RD. It could also be a RD coin that has toning.

 

Like TomB basically said, this standard is all over the place. There are also different shades of RD and BN that can change the opinion of the grader.

[MAULEMALL]

It depends on when it was graded and that is assuming the coin hasn't turned in the slab.

 

RD can equal anywhere from 60% RD to 100%.

 

RB can be anywhere from 25% RD to 99% RD.

 

BN can be 0% RD to 50%RD. It could also be a RD coin that has toning.

 

Like TomB basically said, this standard is all over the place. There are also different shades of RD and BN that can change the opinion of the grader.

I have a 71s proof that is purple and it caused it to get a RB AND knocked it down to Cameo from Ucam.

[airplanenut]

Here's a toned red, so PCGS called it RB... RainBow

 

 

This one they called BN... BeautifullyNatural

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

I am with Tom on this subject. Grading Services appear to be all over the map with these designations. The only one that they seem to agree on (most of the time) is BN.

[Elcontador]

Agree w Greg on this. My comments relate to Large and Half Cents:

 

Initially, the services were pretty strict. A coin had to have 95% original RD to get a RD designation. If it had RD in the protected areas only (the places which retain original color the longest) up to 95% RD, it was RB. If it was BN, it was so labeled.

 

Five years ago or so, this all changed. Now, coins with up to 20-5% RD are graded as BN. I have an 1820 Randall Hoard Large Cent in 65 BN that has 20% original RD.

 

If you are looking for a RB coin, AVOID COPPER IN FIRST GEN. PCGS HOLDERS. The only RB coins left in these are the ones which just made the color designation in the first place; ie., those with 5-10% original RD, that would be

in BN holders if submitted today. Only a babaca would pay RB $ for these.

 

Also avoid RD coins which appear to be newly slabbed. One that has been altered can look good for a few months.

 

Ironically, while standards required for RB status have tightened, they have loosened quite a bit re the RD designation. I've seen plenty of these with "mellowed color" -- which means they're not really RD anymore -- or with only 80% RD -- which means they're nice RB coins.

 

Also, avoid a RB coin which is almost all RD on one side and almost all BN on the other. I prefer a RB coin which has even, or gradual changes in color, versus pools of RD & pools of BN.

[EVillageProwler]

Note carefully what Greg wrote: that RB or BN isn't necessarily the presence of a brownish color, but the absence of "red".

 

Also, note that "red" as used by the services for this color designation isn't necessarily a true red color. It is whatever reddish or orange hue that was on the coin when it originally rolled off the presses. So, for EAC material, it is one shade. For modern bronze cents, it is another.

 

And, yes, the services do play fast and loose here.

 

EVP

 

[Count_Erfit]

"Piecy Guess" called this one "red."

 

[EZ_E]

IMO, the reverse would grade full red but the obverse looks to be red-brown. But, it still boils down to the reliability of the scanned image. The obverse appears to be washed out and may have false browns showing up.

[Newmismatist]

Also, note that "red" as used by the services for this color designation isn't necessarily a true red color. It is whatever reddish or orange hue that was on the coin when it originally rolled off the presses.

 

On the Indianheads.org website our own Shylock has posted what may be the best set of photographs of the different colors and shades of "red" for IHCs that I have ever seen - one picture is worth a thousand words!

Colors of IHCs

[LAWMAN-migration]

I have found, at least with PCGS, that if it ain't spanky bright red like the day it was minted, it usually has a "B" in the grade either RB or B.

[shylock]

Mike - Your rejections may be due to NGC's new 10 year copper guaranty. I imagine they're playing it very safe these days to save themselves any liability down the road (i.e. anything close to borderline RB will be perceived as a possible BN coin 9 years from now.)

 

I find your examples interesting because PCGS has always been paranoid about copper due to their lifetime guaranty, and have been especially brutal on NGC crossovers. Sounds like NGC is now getting a little payback.

[Newmismatist]

I have found, at least with PCGS, that if it ain't spanky bright red like the day it was minted, it usually has a "B" in the grade either RB or B.

 

Lawman

 

They BB the "spanky bight red" ones - dipped - needs to be a "mellowed" red - I have about 30 or so slabbed PCGS RDs to confirm that - also have a few in RB holders that are as "red" as the RDs - they are truly tough on IHCs

[Elcontador]

Paul,

 

While I have the utmost respect for NGC, of the many Unc. Large & Half Cents (Classic Half Cents & later, and Coronet Large Cents & later) I've seen (and to a lesser extent, IHCs), grade for grade, the PCGS material generally looks better to me.

 

The PCGS material typically has more luster / eye appeal, and at times a better strike and / or fewer contact marks. You may be right re the new copper guaranty; that it was done to put an end to this discrepancy.

 

I have not noticed this difference in the grading between PCGS & NGC re the earlier vintage Unc. Large & Half Cents (though I've seen a lot fewer of them).

 

 

[Newmismatist]

Here's a photo of a Pr66RB

[Newmismatist]

Here's a photo of a very nice Pr66RD

[Newmismatist]

Here's a Pr66RD w/nice mellow toning

[Newmismatist]

Here's the reverse of the previous "mellowed" Pr66RD

[Newmismatist]

Here's a Pr65BN Obverse courtsey of TomB

[Newmismatist]

Here's that 1889 Pr65BN Reverse (again courtsey of TomB)

[chinook]

With the exception of the spot on the reverse of the 1897, I like that one better than the 1903. Although I wouldn't throw either one out of bed.

 

Great pics. I find it very difficult to take quality pics of proofs. Especially copper.

[Newmismatist]

With the exception of the spot on the reverse of the 1897, I like that one better than the 1903. Although I wouldn't throw either one out of bed.

 

Great pics. I find it very difficult to take quality pics of proofs. Especially copper.

 

My wife long ago banned my coins from the bedroom, (a very wise move on her part) - You have good taste - Although you can't see the cameo on that 1897 because of the lighting angle, is very prominant, in fact so prominant, that it's the ONLY bronze PCGS Deep Cameo for the IHC series. Here's some more "eye candy" if you like IHC proofs

[TomB]

Simply beautiful IHCs! The cameo pieces look like something from another planet, they are so cool. I really like the 1897 and the image is remniscent of the quality that the Goldbergs have in their auctions. Is this piece from them? Fabulous coins!

[IrishMike]

Absolutely stunning coins, says volumes about your eye for coins. I was very fortunate to see some of Tom's coins at FUN that he brought over to have Paul photograph. Their beauty literally left me speechless.

[291fifth]

You need to set your own standards as there are no industry standards. Set your standards very high and you can't go wrong. Think like a dealer who is buying.

[Newmismatist]

Absolutely stunning coins, says volumes about your eye for coins. I was very fortunate to see some of Tom's coins at FUN that he brought over to have Paul photograph. Their beauty literally left me speechless.

 

Yeah - Tom's got some NICE coins (nice is an understatement! you need those sunglasses just so they don't blind ya!!). I'm lucky, occasionaly I find a nice one too - (but Tom's mad at me - whenever I see him, he yells at me - something about me buying what he wanted! What do I know? I just buy coins I like - not my fault Tom likes the same ones I do - )

[michael]

from the wayte raymond horde

 

this is one of the best eye appealing technically superb gem proof red brown indians i have ever seen

 

ngc pf 67 rb

 

and the coin is a total monster 67++ as in person there is bullseye rings of color from the edge into the middle of the coin which cant be seen in the scan

is really deeply mirrored

strongly cameoed

and there are absolutely no hairlines, spots, toning dots, stains, fly specks, streaks etc. etc.

on this coin

 

the scan barely does justice to the coin

 

 

 

michael

[Newmismatist]

Michael You're letting out our little secret that IHC PR RBs may be the some of the best buys in coins - Stop posting pictures of those gems - others are gonna catch on!

 

Nice Coin ( - it's easier to put together a high grade set of RDs than RBs!)