Silver Eagle Differences?

[Keith Smith-migration]

Another question for you all. ( I try to space these out over time so I don't bombard you. )

 

When I look up Silver Eagles on ebay I find a WIDE assortment of types, and prices. I do know the difference between the MS and PF grade, but how massive of a difference is it to go to PF70 as opposed to PF69? Should that justify a $230 price jump? Same thing with ultra Cameo. With regards to the W mint mark. I know that those are minted at West Point, but can those be purchased from the mints site? I went to the mints site for silver eagles and I can't find a way of knowing if it would be a W or not? Also having the "Early Release Date" from NGC.... Does that make a huge difference?

 

If anyone could provide me a link to some sort of reference page that discribes all of this I would be REALLY gratefull!

 

Thank you all in advance,

 

Keith

[jtryka]

Keith,

 

I am not a modern collector, and all my ASEs are raw, so to me the difference between a 69 and 70 or CAM vs. DCAM do not justify such increases in price. This is even more true with "early releases" which I consider simply a marketing gimmick. Again, these are matters of opinion and I am sure there are many who disagree with me. As for the Mintmark, it depends on where they are minted (I know, duh!) but the proofs have been minted in San Fransisco, Philadelphia and West Point, but currently they are minted in West Point (so all the mint sold coins on their website would have a W). The special uncs. with the W mintmark have only been sold 2 years, 2006-07, so those also would have a W. It is certainly possible that sometime in the future, the mint can change the location again and mint the proofs or burnished uncs. somewhere else (P or S), but for now I believe they are all coming out of West Point. I hope this helps, someone else with more knowledge that me on the slabbed ones should be able to help as well.

[Dcoin]

I’ll highlight one of the things that Jtyrka said. The difference between 69 and 70 is a matter of preference. To the lay collector and even many advanced collector the difference is undistinguishable. Many people cannot justify the price jump, especially when it comes to modern bullion items.

 

Personally speaking, splitting hairs between 69 and 70 does not fit into my collecting goals, therefore I simply disregard it. However when I look at early coinage (1950’s and earlier) that’s when one grading point difference may make a difference to me.

 

Good luck!

[Keith Smith-migration]

Thank you both for your replies!

 

I just purchased a 2007 W Early Release PF 69 Ultra Cameo Silver Eagle on ebay. Final price of $33.53 ( including shipping ). I feel that is a good price especially since it is graded. But then again a good price is only a perseption. If you feel you got a great value for your dollar then you got a great deal, and I'm happy!

 

Thanks again,

 

Keith

[jtryka]

I think that was a little more than the issue price, so I wouldn't complain!

[BULLY]

Thank you both for your replies!

 

I just purchased a 2007 W Early Release PF 69 Ultra Cameo Silver Eagle on ebay. Final price of $33.53 ( including shipping ). I feel that is a good price especially since it is graded. But then again a good price is only a perseption. If you feel you got a great value for your dollar then you got a great deal, and I'm happy!

 

Thanks again,

 

Keith

 

That is DEFINITELY a good price, because the issue price was something like $28.95 last year I THINK (Don't hold me to that, I'd have to go dig out my invoice from the Mint).

 

That said, to get the Early Release pedigree from NGC, the grading fee is $15 (Modern Special) and assumes a 5-coin minimum submission. Sure, members here can get a 10% discount, but that still leaves the grading fee at $13.50 per coin.

 

So, assuming approximately $28.95 for the coin (Mint issue price), $13.50 in grading, then shipping TO AND FROM NGC, well, you do the math. It's clearly in your favor!

 

Simpler math:

 

Silver is down a little at the end of the week, closing at $17.08. SIMPLE MELT VALUE for an ounce of silver, $17.08 PLUS $13.50 for grading = $30.58 --they add shipping to and from NGC for grading. Heck, even just add typical shipping from the mint of $4.95 and you are doing well on your purchase, and that's just on MELT VALUE, never mind the numismatic value of a gorgeous Silver American Eagle!

[BULLY]

Another question for you all. ( I try to space these out over time so I don't bombard you. )

 

When I look up Silver Eagles on ebay I find a WIDE assortment of types, and prices. I do know the difference between the MS and PF grade, but how massive of a difference is it to go to PF70 as opposed to PF69? Should that justify a $230 price jump? Same thing with ultra Cameo. With regards to the W mint mark. I know that those are minted at West Point, but can those be purchased from the mints site? I went to the mints site for silver eagles and I can't find a way of knowing if it would be a W or not? Also having the "Early Release Date" from NGC.... Does that make a huge difference?

 

Keith

 

So many decisions, so little time.

 

First, the 2008 coin you mention from the US Mint web site. I am attaching an image of it that blows up a little bit and you can see the "W" mint mark. The Mint, however, is getting very BAD in their written descriptions about what coins are, as far as where they are made, what mint marks they will bear, and in some cases, even what FINISH they will have (proof vs. mint state). Don't get me started on that though, I have other postings about my tirades on that.

 

As for the price differences between MS/PF69 and MS/PF70, it is common not just for American Silver Eagle coins, but for so many modern issues.

 

What I find is that newer collectors seem to want perfection. So, when you can buy coins from the Mint, for example, and get then graded and get lucky enough to get PF70UC grades, then you can really do well if you want to re-sell like on eBay.

 

MS/PF69 coins should be nothing to sneeze at. However, for instance, I had two batches of MS69 Silver Eagles (Early Release) all graded by NGC, 20 coins each, total 40 coins. I saw someone mention that 69 coins should be almost indistinguishable from 70 graded coins, and that's how I always thought of them. However, these coins looked like

 

Of the 40 total coins, there were literally about SIX which didn't have noticeable flaws. And when I say noticeable flaws, I mean LOTS of them on each coin, on the obverse, the reverse, and in several places of each. Nicks, spots, you name it. These were ALL NGC graded coins mind you, and all MS69. I returned them, and bought 60 others, and of those 60, there were maybe six that HAD any problem whatsoever, and the problems were minor, the minor imperfections you might expect and understand would prevent a coin from reaching a 70.

 

I digress. Well, a little.

 

It is because of things like this that some people seek MS/PF70 graded coins.

 

I've also seen on eBay where some coins that are graded as MS/PF69 sell for about (or sometimes even LESS THAN) their original issue price. For this, I am referring to Modern Commemorative issues in particular, and especially gold. However, that was as recent as December, and I think with gold prices jumping so significantly even since then, I expect that this will happen less so, as people become more interested in the gold content, than the grade, and are happy to get a relatively high grade coin (such as MS/PF69).

 

The 70 graded coins though are still commanding significantly higher premiums, and if you're a collector/investor, buying the highest grade you can afford is generally good advice. Buying from the Mint at issue price and hoping for a 70 if you submit your own coins for grading is a good way to go. If you are generally satisfied with 69s, however, then sometimes it's actually CHEAPER to just buy them already graded on eBay. Literally cheaper than buying the raw coins directly from the Mint -- sickening! This was VERY true with Presidential Proof Dollars. You could buy 4-coin sets of 2007 Presidential Proof Dollars, graded PF69UC, for less than the cost of grading - much less than if you ALSO had to buy the set yourself. Might you have gotten a 70 if you submitted your own? Sure. However, you might also have had to submit 10, 20, or 50 sets to get 69s or 70s!

 

Q: Does having "Early Release" make a difference?

A: It is probably too early to tell. However, the coin marketplace can be fickle. Collectors seem to like any special labels or special designations. Collectors really likes the "First Strike" designation, which both NGC and PCGS did (and which PCGS still does). Due to a lawsuit, NGC stopped First Strikes, and changed to Early Releases, a more accurate designation of bullion coins that are received at NGC within the first 30 days of being released by the Mint.

 

Does this make them more valuable? Well, if you check the PCGS Price Guide for "First Strikes," the answer is yes. Nearly all the first strike coins for Silver, Gold and Platinum Eagles are listed at higher values than their "generic" counterparts."

 

I would compare NGC's Early Release pedigree to PCGS' First Strike program. Some might argue, but it's comparable. NGC does not offer opinions on prices, or whether they SHOULD be worth more.

 

Is it a marketing ploy as some may claim? Well, that is possible.

 

However, the flip side is that NGC is meeting a DEMAND for this product. Early Release pedigreed coins are in demand, and the SERVICE itself is in demand from NGC. Therefore, is it worth it to get an Early Release coin? If faced with two comparable coins, all things being equal, I'd select the Early Release.

 

Further, when submitting my coins to NGC, I will submit them within the 30 day window and pay $13.50 instead of $11.25 -- $2.25 is a nominal per coin differential -- to get each coin the "Early Releases" pedigree, in the hopes that if there is re-sale in the coin's future, it will command a greater return. The PCGS price guide for First Strike coins seems to imply this, but as I started this posting, it may be too soon to know for sure.

 

http://www.pcgs.com/prices/

 

If the last two years are any indication though, the coins are already commanding premiums. There are naysayers, but many of the naysayers don't like modern coins at all, and many of the naysayers don't even consider American Silver Eagles "coins." They'll just call them silver "rounds" -- even though they are, in fact, non-circulating legal tender.

 

Ultimately, the decision is yours - particularly on the price jumps from 69 to 70!

If you are into competitive Registry Sets, that may also be of interest to you.

[bsshog40]

The picture you are showing depicts the 2008 Proof. You can tell by the picture trying to show that it has a mirrored field. When you visit the US Mint site and you see the Eagle that doesn't show the reflection, that is the uncirculated. The mint now only sells the Silver SAE's that are minted at West Point "W". The others that you see on ebay or elsewhere are minted at Phil. "P" (no mintmark). I don't really see all that much different from a PF69 to PF70, but I do see the difference for the uncirculated eagles from MS69 to MS70, as to the fields on these can be marked very easily. The early releases as stated before are merely marketing ploys but will sometimes bring a little more than the others.

[CHABSENTIA]

I don;t know where you are getting these $230.00 price jumps unless you are looking at these Snake Oil T.V.Coin shows. HSN started off with $349.00 for a 2008 for a 2008 MS70. A few other coin shows then went to $299.00 and now most or at $249.00.

 

 

I checked and you can get a 2008 MS70 in a PCGS holder for about $175.00 or cheaper on E BAY. I picked up a 2008 MS69 on EBay for $26.00 last month.

 

 

[BULLY]

 

I checked and you can get a 2008 MS70 in a PCGS holder for about $175.00 or cheaper on E BAY. I picked up a 2008 MS69 on EBay for $26.00 last month.

 

 

I'm going to do something I am going to probably kick myself for doing later: share the name of someone I've found to be a reliable, fairly priced dealer.

 

www.moderncoinmart.com

 

Right now on the site, there are 2008 MS69 Early Release Eagles for $29 -- However, if I am not mistaken, a month or so ago, before the price jump in silver, they were only $27.

 

This merchant ALSO sells on eBay (you can link to his eBay store from his web site at using a link at the top of the page, in case you prefer shopping on eBay or in case there are better bargains to be had), and had a Dutch Auction of them, and similar to what CHABSENTIA mentioned, ended up selling a LOT of these very coins for $26 and change about a month ago. Actually, I lied. I just pulled out my invoice, and I got SIXTY coins via Dutch Auction on eBay from this dealer for $25.50 per. Considering melt value ($17.08 as of Friday close), and the cost of grading ($13.50 for Early Release pedigree), and how much silver has jumped since? I consider it the bargain of the year. Cheaper than it was even on his own site at the time when it was listed at $27! I mean shipping all those coins TO and FROM NGC, and so on? This is what is commonly know as: The no-brainer.

NOTE TO THE ANTI-MODERN COIN FOLKS: No hate mail please, and no "no-brain" jokes! I can see the set-up already, and batting it out of the park would be far too easy.

 

So there you have it, I just blew what MAY have been a well-kept secret, a reputable dealer with reasonable prices, which do appear to fluctuate with the bullion markets, but otherwise I've found him to be reliable, both ON and OFF of eBay.

[BULLY]

I don't really see all that much different from a PF69 to PF70, but I do see the difference for the uncirculated eagles from MS69 to MS70, as to the fields on these can be marked very easily.

 

You know, this is a REALLY good point, and reflects my experience as well.

 

When it comes to PROOF coins, the difference between PF69 and PF70 is nearly impossible for me to find. This epitomizes what we think of when we think of the different between the 69 and 70 grades, both basically perfect to the naked eye coins, with the 69 perhaps having some MICROSCOPIC flaw that kept it from making the 70 grade.

 

However, when it comes to the uncirculated coins, my experience is just like BSSHOG here, just like I described previously, ESPECIALLY as it related to my first purchase of the 2008 MS69 Early Release Eagles which I returned. These coins were COMMONLY marked in the fields, and even higher points had nicks and blemishes that were unappealing to my eye.

 

FOR THE RECORD (due to my other post: the bad coins did NOT come from Modern Coin Mart. In fact, the ones I returned were more expensive, and I replaced them with the ones from Modern Coin Mart which, of the 60, were almost all nearly perfect, with only a few of the 60 showing any blemish or field markings, which is what you might expect of a MS69 coin).

[BULLY]

The early releases as stated before are merely marketing ploys but will sometimes bring a little more than the others.

 

 

This is the conundrum:

 

I must respectfully disagree. While it may seem that the Early Releases are a marketing ploy, collectors are, in fact, driving the market. It is collectors who are seeking these labels in droves. I don't know what the statistics are, but at least in the early part of the year, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of ASE coins that NGC grades are as Early Releases, rather than in a plain label. Similarly, at PCGS, people seek their First Strike designation.

 

All this despite the "First Strike" lawsuit:

 

http://www.firststrikessettlement.com/

 

All this despite a mention of First Strikes in "Hot Items" on the US Mint web site:

 

http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/index.cfm?action=hotitems

 

However, I still contend that coin collectors are a fickle bunch. They (we) like anything "special." They like special labels, special designations, anything that makes a coin unique or gives it something that makes it stand out above the rest.

 

Coin collectors like "UC" instead of just plain CAMEO as a designation. At NGC, the coveted star (*) designation can make a coin sell on eBay for 25-50% or more than it's actual PCGS price guide price.

 

Is that not just another "marketing ploy" since NGC is, in fact, the only TPG to be offering the STAR designation on coins with "extra eye appeal."

I mean, why NOT just grade it up or down a notch? Isn't it just a teaser? Or is it a YET ANOTHER MARKETING PLOY?

 

Coin collectors search out obscure varieties of coins, or even to find NEW varieties of coins, making the FINEST of distinctions, the slightest font change, the tediously long spread about the Peg Leg Ike in a recent issue of "The Numismatist" comes to mind -- and I'm an Ike lover! Frankly, I found it overwhelming, but to enthusiasts, the distinction would make a huge difference.

 

The list continues if you look at VARIETY PLUS services, some perhaps legitimately so, some so obscure, one wonders if that too is not just marketing.

 

Which leaves me to conclude that Early Releases are probably here to stay, and probably will command higher prices as they have been doing, and as the price guide seems to indicate for First Strikes. In general, the price differential appears to be significantly more than the nominal difference in the grading fee (which at NGC, assuming you are a member getting a 10% discount is $2.25 per coin).

 

http://www.pcgs.com/prices/PriceGuideDetail.aspx?c=939

 

 

[Keith Smith-migration]

Wow!

 

Thank you all for the info! I've been working the past several days ( 2 jobs ) so I havn't had time to post. Thank you all for your input!

 

Keith