Submission of Doctored Coins – Revision to NGC Rules, Procedures and T & C

[Conder101]

It should, however, at least make things somewhat more difficult for certain submitters who doctor or knowingly submit for those who doctor coins. It also puts them on notice that they are subject to consequences far beyond a mere body-bag and loss of a grading fee.

Look at the email again. The dealers have ALWAYS been subject to NGC coming after them for reimbursement if they have have to pay out on their guarantee. The only thing this new policy does is tell the dealers they will get a warning letter, then a suspension, and finally if they keep it up they MAY have their Authorized Dealer status revoked. Those are the only new provisions.

 

And for those collectors who have bought memberships and are now worried that they may be held responsible, how many of you got this email from NGC? Probably none because it doesn't apply to you, it applies to the Authorized Member Dealers. See the first line? That is who it is addressed to.

 

Then in the section where it discusses the "terms and conditions"

 

Please note that pursuant to our standard Terms & Conditions you, as an authorized dealer, indemnify NGC against all claims, liability and expenses that NGC may incur in covering any claims as a result of doctored coins submitted by you which may initially evade our detection.

 

See the section in bold? Again it refers to AUTHORIZED DEALERS, not Collector Society paid members.

[MarkFeld]

It should, however, at least make things somewhat more difficult for certain submitters who doctor or knowingly submit for those who doctor coins. It also puts them on notice that they are subject to consequences far beyond a mere body-bag and loss of a grading fee.

Look at the email again. The dealers have ALWAYS been subject to NGC coming after them for reimbursement if they have have to pay out on their guarantee. The only thing this new policy does is tell the dealers they will get a warning letter, then a suspension, and finally if they keep it up they MAY have their Authorized Dealer status revoked. Those are the only new provisions.......

 

Even if there is not a lot of new language, I look upon the announcements by NGC and PCGS as an indication that they are getting more serious about actually enforcing their stated policies and putting potential violators on more recent and public notice.

[bsshog40]

I think that this is a good approach to those that doctor coins. Most people can tell when a coin has been doctored and probably do not purchase these anyway. At least knowledable collectors don't. Unless you are a buyer of doctored coins, then I see no reason for any of us normal coin submitters to worry about anything.

[physics-fan3.14]

I am glad the clarification about it being for dealers was posted. The first page or so of this thread had me worried and outraged, but I was placated by the clarification. I now think it is a good idea, but remember you might have really stupid dealers out there. We know that some dealers deal in slabs and can't tell a good coin from a hole in the ground, so they might be punished for being stupid. (Then again, this is a good thing as well: either they learn or they go out of business.)

[gmarguli]

I seriously doubt that NGC or PCGS would go after anyone except the most egregious submitters of doctored coins. To do otherwise would not be beneficial for their business.

[MarkFeld]

I think that this is a good approach to those that doctor coins. Most people can tell when a coin has been doctored and probably do not purchase these anyway. At least knowledable collectors don't. Unless you are a buyer of doctored coins, then I see no reason for any of us normal coin submitters to worry about anything.

Unfortunately, I strongly disagree that "most people can tell when a coin has been doctored". Perhaps you were speaking only of the most unsophisticated/non-expert doctoring jobs.

[bsshog40]

I think that this is a good approach to those that doctor coins. Most people can tell when a coin has been doctored and probably do not purchase these anyway. At least knowledable collectors don't. Unless you are a buyer of doctored coins, then I see no reason for any of us normal coin submitters to worry about anything.

Unfortunately, I strongly disagree that "most people can tell when a coin has been doctored". Perhaps you were speaking only of the most unsophisticated/non-expert doctoring jobs.

 

Correct Mark. Some collectors, like myself, would probably only be able to recognize blatant doctoring.

[michael]

and am glad to see it. I hope that they will follow through in a fair, but aggressive fashion on a long term basis.

 

but on the other side of the coin.....................................

 

is it a pre-curser to limiting their liability

[michael]

Step one in a long process of shutting down those who wittingly or unwittingly submit the coin doc's coins for them. [applause]

 

 

(thumbs u

[JCM-Houston]

I am very glad to see them trying to crack down. I'm pretty new to collecting higher end coins and really don't feel confident I can spot a 1/2 way decent doctoring job. Anything they do is better than nothing.

[realone]

I'll tell you another thing the TPG could do to stop this proliferation from continuing, if a dealer submits a messed with coin (obviously with these cases I am speaking of the TPG has to be able to prove it) the TPG will keep the coin. How is that for making the doctors shake in their boots. Just think when the TPG supplies their proof I can really imagine the coin doctor arguing fiercly that the coin has no problems whatsoever. I say make the coin doctors have something more to risk than the TPG pulling the cord and the doc just makes up another name.

Hopefully no one today already mentioned, if so then just ignore, thanks.

[MarkFeld]

I'll tell you another thing the TPG could do to stop this proliferation from continuing, if a dealer submits a messed with coin (obviously with these cases I am speaking of the TPG has to be able to prove it) the TPG will keep the coin. How is that for making the doctors shake in their boots. Just think when the TPG supplies their proof I can really imagine the coin doctor arguing fiercly that the coin has no problems whatsoever. I say make the coin doctors have something more to risk than the TPG pulling the cord and the doc just makes up another name.

Hopefully no one today already mentioned, if so then just ignore, thanks.

I believe that would constitute theft by conversion (or something similar) and couldn't be done legally - sorry.

[Conder101]

Even if there is not a lot of new language, I look upon the announcements by NGC and PCGS as an indication that they are getting more serious about actually enforcing their stated policies and putting potential violators on more recent and public notice.

The announcements are a good thing and I look at them the same way, but with a jaundiced eye. They have had the means in the dealer terms to crack down on this all along and haven't done it, instead they are in effect giving them a second warning, a "shot across the bow" so to speak, with this email telling them they will receive warnings and suspensions if they keep doing it. OK, that's all well and good, but ONLY if they actually follow through with the warnings, suspensions, and expulsions. I give it a nod of approval but will reserve my applause until I see actions and/or results and not just words.

[MarkFeld]

Even if there is not a lot of new language, I look upon the announcements by NGC and PCGS as an indication that they are getting more serious about actually enforcing their stated policies and putting potential violators on more recent and public notice.

The announcements are a good thing and I look at them the same way, but with a jaundiced eye. They have had the means in the dealer terms to crack down on this all along and haven't done it, instead they are in effect giving them a second warning, a "shot across the bow" so to speak, with this email telling them they will receive warnings and suspensions if they keep doing it. OK, that's all well and good, but ONLY if they actually follow through with the warnings, suspensions, and expulsions. I give it a nod of approval but will reserve my applause until I see actions and/or results and not just words.

Very well said!

[realone]

Regarding an idea of NGC keeping a doctored coin. Why couldn't NGC state ahead of time that if you submit a coin to us whether you were aware or not that it was messed with the coin will be returned to you with a hole drilled through it in order to protect the general public but for the submitter to keep and wear around his neck. Kind of like what Lordmarvalcoin does with his.

[okbustchaser]

Regarding an idea of NGC keeping a doctored coin. Why couldn't NGC state ahead of time that if you submit a coin to us whether you were aware or not that it was messed with the coin will be returned to you with a hole drilled through it in order to protect the general public but for the submitter to keep and wear around his neck. Kind of like what Lordmarvalcoin does with his.

 

Mostly because it would be illegal to do so. Messed with or not that coin has a set value in the market. No non-owner has the right to willfully destroy that value.

[CHABSENTIA]

Not only that but it is my understanding that in order to really be able to see the hairlines from say even a mild cleaning that one needs a Microscope with a 20X Magnification.

 

 

What happens to the Submitter that doesn't know this or doesn't care to purchase one and the cleaning is not visible to the naked eye and the Coin/s he submits come back with a hole drilled in them?

[MarkFeld]

Not only that but it is my understanding that in order to really be able to see the hairlines from say even a mild cleaning that one needs a Microscope with a 20X Magnification.

 

 

What happens to the Submitter that doesn't know this or doesn't care to purchase one and the cleaning is not visible to the naked eye and the Coin/s he submits come back with a hole drilled in them?

Cleaning hairlines can often be spotted with the naked eye or much lower magnification than 20X.

[ant]

what is the magnifacation say ngc uses. do they stop at 20x or do they use microscopes?

[MAULEMALL]

what is the magnifacation say ngc uses. do they stop at 20x or do they use microscopes?

I believe it's 5X.. If any at all.

[Conder101]

Usually the graders at the major services don't use magnifiers. If they do it's 3 to 7X. Very rarely would they go higher than that.

[ant]

thanks i feel better now