Submission of Doctored Coins – Revision to NGC Rules, Procedures and T & C

[pendragon1998]

From Across the street.

 

Is this true?

 

 

*********************

Submission of Doctored Coins – Revision to NGC Rules, Procedures and Terms & Conditions

 

 

 

Dear Authorized Member Dealer:

 

In recent months, NGC has seen a significant increase in the number of deceptively doctored coins submitted for grading. A doctored coin is one which has been purposefully and unnaturally altered to lend the appearance of a higher grade. In order to protect the collecting public, our authorized dealer network and NGC’s own reputation, we are announcing specific rule changes and new terms and conditions to deal with doctored coins.

 

1. Anyone submitting a doctored coin will receive a warning letter from NGC detailing the problems with the submitted items as well as NGC’s rules, procedures, and conditions outlined in this letter.

 

2. Upon a second submission of doctored coins, anyone who received the initial warning letter described above, shall be subject to a 90-day suspension of their rights to submit coins to NGC.

 

3. Should that submitter continue to submit doctored coins following the suspension, NGC may, in its sole discretion permanently suspend all rights of submission and terminate their authorized member dealer status.

 

Please note that pursuant to our standard Terms & Conditions you, as an authorized dealer, indemnify NGC against all claims, liability and expenses that NGC may incur in covering any claims as a result of doctored coins submitted by you which may initially evade our detection. NGC in its sole discretion may invoke such indemnification and the right to suspend and/or terminate the submitter whether or not the submitter was acting on his own behalf or on behalf of a third party in submitting doctored coins for grading and authentication.

 

We believe you will agree with us that this new policy can only act towards the betterment of the numismatic community.

 

Very truly yours,

 

Steven Eichenbaum

Chief Executive Officer

 

[MarkFeld]

I received the email from NGC and am glad to see it. I hope that they will follow through in a fair, but aggressive fashion on a long term basis.

[Tradedollarnut]

Step one in a long process of shutting down those who wittingly or unwittingly submit the coin doc's coins for them. [applause]

[truthteller]

Step one in a long process of shutting down those who wittingly or unwittingly submit the coin doc's coins for them. [applause]

 

 

Absolutely correct. And I applaud NGC for this new procedure. This should end some of the absolutely suspect coins from entering the marketplace. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

I think you're dreaming if you think this will really help. The TPG already know the names of the big coin doctors. They're not going to stop them.

 

Best case a dealer gets a warning letter and is scared to submit more coins for a certain person. That person will just submit thru another dealer or buy a membership thru the name of a friend.

 

It'd be wiser for the TPG to watch the certain submitters they know the doctors use so they can double check the coins.

 

Good intentions, but can't see it doing any real good.

[James_OldeTowne]

This sounds a lot like a "CYA", more than anything else. Did I miss where they define what's considered "doctored"? Is it just putty? plugged holes? AT? dipping??

[ant]

i was getting worried untill i saw this post! i give high regards to them for doing that. i think its partialy to lots of "AT" coins are getting into slabs and found later. hopfully we dont see many "colored "coins in the future. if i wanted lots of color id collect easter eggs now some "natural" light gold is lovely sometimes but when i see one person selling 20+"colored" coins it is nearly imposable for that many same colored coins to be in the posession of 1 person. and they never seem to run out.

 

!down with crayola coins!

[TomB]

I expect that this is designed to give NGC better legal footing in an effort to combat higher volume/value submitters of manipulated coinage and that this policy will be invisible to the vast majority of folks within the hobby/industry.

[gmarguli]

If that is the case, then they should not have included the line, "A doctored coin is one which has been purposefully and unnaturally altered to lend the appearance of a higher grade." as putting a rainbow on a Morgan would not fall under this. Lasering proof gold would.

 

 

[awb]

Step one in a long process of shutting down those who wittingly or unwittingly submit the coin doc's coins for them. [applause]

As Greg intimated, doesn't this seem unfair to the guy who submits a coin not realizing it has been doctored?

[MarkFeld]

Step one in a long process of shutting down those who wittingly or unwittingly submit the coin doc's coins for them. [applause]

As Greg intimated, doesn't this seem unfair to the guy who submits a coin not realizing it has been doctored?

The policy is clearly not aimed at "the guy who submits a coin not realizing it has been doctored". And I seriously doubt that innocent parties have anything to worry about.

 

It should, however, at least make things somewhat more difficult for certain submitters who doctor or knowingly submit for those who doctor coins. It also puts them on notice that they are subject to consequences far beyond a mere body-bag and loss of a grading fee.

 

Will this solve the problem? Of course not, but, and I'm not speaking to anyone in particular here (edited to add: other than poster gecko109 on the PCGS forum, who doesn't seem to understand that this has nothing to do with the expertise of NGC, but rather, is about sending a strong message to coin doctors and their submitter-friends), that's no reason to criticize an effort in the right direction.

 

 

[CTcollector1]

I've got to think that the formation and acceptance of CAC is influencing this policy change.

[GDJMSP]

Question - does the new policy apply to just dealers who submit or does it apply to members who submit as individuals as well ?

[awb]

The policy is clearly not aimed at "the guy who submits a coin not realizing it has been doctored".

Maybe not, but unless it is selectively enforced to target the most blatant offenders, how will the "innocent" (unwitting) parties not be penalized?

[ant]

my thaughts are , how do they know who the "blatant" senders are. the only way i see this kinda maybe sorta working is if they target all "suspected" "doctored" coins.

 

again if they kept notes on the coins they grade they would be able to keep "doctored" coins on record. heck even a pic of said coin as proof that "doctoring" had happened.without notes this could just be another way to get money for not slabbing aka bodybag.......

 

as an diamond appraiser (soon to be gia certified) i will be keeping stats of every item i "look at". i will take pictures,take acurate notes (color,clarity,cut,blemishes...) it wont be hard to do and it keeps me caught up on things. if a customer needs a question answered like why did it get the clarity it did, i can then pull up file and tell them as they see it with there own eyes

 

thats what computers do! keep records

 

without records THERE IS NO PROOF.

[BULLY]

The policy is clearly not aimed at "the guy who submits a coin not realizing it has been doctored".

Maybe not, but unless it is selectively enforced to target the most blatant offenders, how will the "innocent" (unwitting) parties not be penalized?

 

 

That is not clear to me at all either. The only thing about the policy that is clear is that if you submit doctored coins, you get warned, sternly. If you do it repeatedly, you get suspended. I see no reference in this to the unwitting victim who, say, bought a few coins from an unscrupulous dealer on eBay, and submitted the coins, which happened to be doctored, to NGC for grading.

 

In such a case, it appears to punish the victim, not unlike in some countries where a rape victim is the one put on trial, because she must have TEMPTED the man. She is the criminal, not the rapist, and can be put to death for it. In this case, double whammy: Get ripped off by a crooked dealer, get suspended by NGC and have a doctored coin that is essentially worthless as you are punished for your trusting nature -- YOU should have KNOWN BETTER.

 

 

[ant]

scary thaught indeed.

[MarkFeld]

The policy is clearly not aimed at "the guy who submits a coin not realizing it has been doctored".

Maybe not, but unless it is selectively enforced to target the most blatant offenders, how will the "innocent" (unwitting) parties not be penalized?

 

 

That is not clear to me at all either. The only thing about the policy that is clear is that if you submit doctored coins, you get warned, sternly. If you do it repeatedly, you get suspended. I see no reference in this to the unwitting victim who, say, bought a few coins from an unscrupulous dealer on eBay, and submitted the coins, which happened to be doctored, to NGC for grading.

 

In such a case, it appears to punish the victim, not unlike in some countries where a rape victim is the one put on trial, because she must have TEMPTED the man. She is the criminal, not the rapist, and can be put to death for it. In this case, double whammy: Get ripped off by a crooked dealer, get suspended by NGC and have a doctored coin that is essentially worthless as you are punished for your trusting nature -- YOU should have KNOWN BETTER.

 

I think the concerns that you and a few others expressed are greatly misplaced. For example, NGC will not be suspending anyone who got ripped off by a dealer or unknowingly submits doctored coins. Please give them a chance and see what actually happens before you accuse them of being hanging judges.

[ant]

maybe a lil more clarifacation on the issue from them would help a tad

 

 

[TomB]

At this time I share very close to the same opinion as Mark Feld on this issue. In my opinion NGC is not looking to trip up and net the average collector who might send in 30-40 coins each year, but who also receives two or three bagged coins for dipped copper or an AT ASE, Washington quarter or Mercury dime. Similarly, I do not think they are aiming at those folks who get ripped on ebay and send in two dozen whizzed type coins, lacquered large cents or EZ-Bake Oven Morgan dollars. The policy would appear to be written broadly, but with the intention of screening out those submissions that produce coinage of sophisticated manipulation with some frequency. Pieces that have been manipulated with putty, with lasers or with uncommon and deceptive AT techniques would send up a flag and would then likely begin their journey through the warning, suspension or legal action system. Obviously, that is not how the notice has been written, but that would seem to be the most logical way to interpret it and also the way in which NGC would use their resources most efficiently.

[goldrarities.com-migration]

Kudos to NGC for taking on the coin doctors head on!!!

 

The interesting thing is that they are being bashed across the street, why I don't know. PCGS cares about the coin doctor issues as well, I guess those that post over there don't realize that PCGS will likely be addressing these issues as well.

[MikeInFL]

A great move by NGC. Bravo!

 

One question -- does NGC consider using MS70 on copper "doctoring"?

[supertooth]

I'm going to take the attitude of a Mark Feld on this one. Lets hope that it helps. Let's give NGC a chance to try and help to weed out some problems. And, like my friend---CTcollector says---if it gets pushed along because of some influence by the CAC, so much the better.

 

I've got to believe that all four of the major grading services know at least some of where the problems come from. Afterall, they really do keep the records. So, if they can see their way clear to now trying to eliminate some of the less reputable practices of our hobby----this collector welcomes that endeavor. Bob [supertooth]

 

I see that my friend, Tom B posted ahead of me----and I'd like to also agree with his remarks. The little guy is not who the folks at NGC are after IMHO.

[Tradedollarnut]

Kudos to NGC for taking on the coin doctors head on!!!

 

The interesting thing is that they are being bashed across the street, why I don't know. PCGS cares about the coin doctor issues as well, I guess those that post over there don't realize that PCGS will likely be addressing these issues as well.

 

They just made a similar announcement.

[jesbroken]

I am glad all are happy with this event. So now we must, as non professional collectors, do NGC's job for them before submitting? I thought that was the purpose of submitting to NGC-to get their opinion and guarantee that a coin has not been manipulated. Should we also grade the coin and tell them what the grade is-not what we think it is? I believe they went a step too far, had this been just for certified dealers who should know(to some extent, not all) whether the coin was doctored or not, but they say anyone. I believe this is a let down for collectors who depend on NGC for verifying their coins. JMO

[James_OldeTowne]

Kudos to NGC for taking on the coin doctors head on!!!

 

The interesting thing is that they are being bashed across the street, why I don't know. PCGS cares about the coin doctor issues as well, I guess those that post over there don't realize that PCGS will likely be addressing these issues as well.

 

They just made a similar announcement.

Can you please link?

[Tradedollarnut]

PCGS Reinforces Rules for Suspected “Doctored” Coins

 

 

(Santa Ana, California) – Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) is advising its authorized dealers of the existing terms and policies regarding submission of so-called “doctored” coins, and is reinforcing the application of those policies.

 

“We’re seeing more and more coin doctoring than we’ve ever seen, and the methods used to alter the coins are more and more sophisticated,” said Ron Guth, President of PCGS, a division of Collectors Universe, Inc. (NASDAQ: CLCT).

 

“We are constantly trying to keep up with new and sophisticated techniques, such as micro surgery with lasers and various chemical treatments to alter the surfaces of coins. You name it, and the coin doctors are trying it. We’re giving public notice to those who alter coins that we’re clamping down on them.”

 

Guth said PCGS graders are frequently updated on what to watch for when analyzing coins submitted for certification. He compares the continuing education to combat coin doctoring and counterfeiting to anti-virus software makers who are on constant vigil against computer hackers and new viruses.

 

In addition to close examination and scrutiny by PCGS graders, coins suspected of tampering in violation of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Section 331, may be submitted by PCGS to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for review to determine if U.S. law has been violated. PCGS will cooperate fully if the FBI believes there is sufficient information to warrant an investigation.

 

“We are fighting the coin doctors who are trying to take advantage of the marketplace, deceive the public and perhaps pursue our money back guarantee.”

 

PCGS is reminding dealers of the specific language of their Authorized Dealer Agreement regarding impaired or altered coins. The contract states in part:

 

Dealer shall not “doctor” coins or knowingly submit to PCGS coins which have been "doctored". Coin “doctoring” involves the alteration of the appearance of a coin to attempt to increase its value, and may involve, among other things, adding substances to coins (such as, among other things, putty, wax, facial oils, petroleum jelly or varnish); treating coins with chemicals (such as, among other things, potash, sulfur, cyanide, iodine or bleach); heat treating coins in any way to alter their appearance; re-matting (“skinning”) proof gold; “tapping” and “spooning” ( i.e., physically moving surface metal to hide marks); filing rim nicks; or repairing coins (re-tooling metal).

 

Dealer and PCGS agree that PCGS would suffer irreparable damages if Dealer were to engage in coin “doctoring” and that PCGS shall be entitled to not only compensatory damage but also preliminary and final injunctive relief for any breach of Dealer’s obligation not to “doctor” coins or knowingly to submit “doctored” coins to PCGS. Dealer agrees that in the event PCGS incurs any attorney fees and/or cost and expenses as a result of said “doctoring,” including but not limited to investigating claims of alleged “doctoring,” and engaging in legal proceedings with Dealer or any third party relating to same, PCGS shall be entitled to reimbursement of such fees and costs from Dealer.

 

“PCGS Authorized Dealers are encouraged to review and understand the dealer agreement and to understand the scope and application of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Section 331,” said Guth.

 

Title 18, Section 331, involves the mutilation, diminution and falsification of coins, and states:

 

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

 

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished falsified, scaled, or lightened;

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

 

For additional information about PCGS, visit online at www.PCGS.com, or by e-mail at info@PCGS.com.

 

[okbustchaser]

I am glad all are happy with this event. So now we must, as non professional collectors, do NGC's job for them before submitting? I thought that was the purpose of submitting to NGC-to get their opinion and guarantee that a coin has not been manipulated. Should we also grade the coin and tell them what the grade is-not what we think it is? I believe they went a step too far, had this been just for certified dealers who should know(to some extent, not all) whether the coin was doctored or not, but they say anyone. I believe this is a let down for collectors who depend on NGC for verifying their coins. JMO

 

 

As I understand the email it is just for submissions by authorized dealers. It has absolutely nothing to do with the occasional submission from a collector.

[jesbroken]

OK, ok. Thanks, I hope that is the case. It would make more sense for that, although it may be tough on some dealers who do not recognize the better doctored coins. Some evidently were not discovered by PCGS or NGC, so not necessarily an easy task.

[MikeInFL]

The following was posted ATS:

 

PCGS Reinforces Rules for Suspected “Doctored” Coins

 

 

(Santa Ana, California) – Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) is advising its authorized dealers of the existing terms and policies regarding submission of so-called “doctored” coins, and is reinforcing the application of those policies.

 

“We’re seeing more and more coin doctoring than we’ve ever seen, and the methods used to alter the coins are more and more sophisticated,” said Ron Guth, President of PCGS, a division of Collectors Universe, Inc. (NASDAQ: CLCT).

 

“We are constantly trying to keep up with new and sophisticated techniques, such as micro surgery with lasers and various chemical treatments to alter the surfaces of coins. You name it, and the coin doctors are trying it. We’re giving public notice to those who alter coins that we’re clamping down on them.”

 

Guth said PCGS graders are frequently updated on what to watch for when analyzing coins submitted for certification. He compares the continuing education to combat coin doctoring and counterfeiting to anti-virus software makers who are on constant vigil against computer hackers and new viruses.

 

In addition to close examination and scrutiny by PCGS graders, coins suspected of tampering in violation of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Section 331, may be submitted by PCGS to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for review to determine if U.S. law has been violated. PCGS will cooperate fully if the FBI believes there is sufficient information to warrant an investigation.

 

“We are fighting the coin doctors who are trying to take advantage of the marketplace, deceive the public and perhaps pursue our money back guarantee.”

 

PCGS is reminding dealers of the specific language of their Authorized Dealer Agreement regarding impaired or altered coins. The contract states in part:

 

Dealer shall not “doctor” coins or knowingly submit to PCGS coins which have been "doctored". Coin “doctoring” involves the alteration of the appearance of a coin to attempt to increase its value, and may involve, among other things, adding substances to coins (such as, among other things, putty, wax, facial oils, petroleum jelly or varnish); treating coins with chemicals (such as, among other things, potash, sulfur, cyanide, iodine or bleach); heat treating coins in any way to alter their appearance; re-matting (“skinning”) proof gold; “tapping” and “spooning” ( i.e., physically moving surface metal to hide marks); filing rim nicks; or repairing coins (re-tooling metal).

 

Dealer and PCGS agree that PCGS would suffer irreparable damages if Dealer were to engage in coin “doctoring” and that PCGS shall be entitled to not only compensatory damage but also preliminary and final injunctive relief for any breach of Dealer’s obligation not to “doctor” coins or knowingly to submit “doctored” coins to PCGS. Dealer agrees that in the event PCGS incurs any attorney fees and/or cost and expenses as a result of said “doctoring,” including but not limited to investigating claims of alleged “doctoring,” and engaging in legal proceedings with Dealer or any third party relating to same, PCGS shall be entitled to reimbursement of such fees and costs from Dealer.

 

“PCGS Authorized Dealers are encouraged to review and understand the dealer agreement and to understand the scope and application of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Section 331,” said Guth.

 

Title 18, Section 331, involves the mutilation, diminution and falsification of coins, and states:

 

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

 

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished falsified, scaled, or lightened;

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

 

For additional information about PCGS, visit online at www.PCGS.com, or by e-mail at info@PCGS.com.

 

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