Ok, a slight rant on the mint.....

[TheMightyDuke]

Well, given the problem/shenanigans with the Mints web site, and the likelihood of seeing the 3 coin proof set GONE before anyone can log into their account to order one (THAT boggles the mind), does anyone think any of the TPG's may re-think this whole thing and actually holder these with a special designation (remenger, there ARE only 25,000)? Will they realize that these sets SHOULD be designated, as in the case of the 20th Anniv sets (where any old coin could be thrown in the box, except the Rev Proof) so Joe Q. Public's 'pooch' doesnt get it more than the 'pooch' is getting it now? Or, will we simply see this as another generic commemorative that will see the premium kick in when the pre-issue prices are gone (long after the 3 piece proof set is gone) and everyone wants that $25 box?

 

Again, not trying to hose the mint totally (what they did was long overdue and hopefuly, this will alleviate lock-ups/freeze-ups/timing out for future issues), but to do what they did the VERY DAY a much anticipated, gorgeous design (though, I am not crazy about the half) is introduced (why the hell couldnt they try it over the holiday weekend when NOONE was needing to use the site?), this has just turned into a nightmare for all involved....the Mint, the collector, the flipper, everyone....just look at some of the ebay pre-sale prices that have closed for that 3 coin proof set already....over $600, with a number of them BIN'ed at over $600 as I write this. Remember, these pre-sales, or anyone that got an order in, for that matter (count me in as one that did) are going on despite the fact that NOT ONE INTERNET ORDER was placed for these!!!!! These are 'crazy days and crazy nites' my brethren, and with the multitudes of future commemorative issues (NASA, for one, is rumored to have, what, 10 coins by itself?), could this be 1936 deja-vu all over again at the mint? Or, are we becomming more like our friends from the north (hell, their money is worth more than ours is now, the RCM is second to none when it comes to gorgeous designs, but THEY pump out OODLES of special issues/commemoratives....)? Is it a case of 'it works for them, why cant it work for us?' Are we nearing the day when the U.S. Mint produces a 1 kilo gold commemorative for the inventor of the pizza and makes a .9999 Gold coin in the shape of a pizza with pepperoni and anchovies? Where this rollercoater ride stops, nobody knows, but it will be fun to see, though, I seenothing less than the Mint 'alienating the collector AGAIN'!!! They took the mint marks off coins to keep collectors from hoarding.....um, Hello! McFly!!! The really are liable to do just about anything

 

 

Disclaimer: My growing disdain towards the U.S. Mint is very new. As of Jan 15th, I no longer look at it as a 'Modern Coin Shop'...I can really see that there is justification to see it/use it as a 'get in QUICK, get out QUICKER' money maker (not like HSN, QVC, SAH that submit by the truckload...I refer to the person that orders the max allowed and rolls his/her dice)...I have never been, and never will be a 'flipper'....however, through listening to forum members (here, ATS, and a few other coin forums) thoughts, analysis and sometimes just good old gut instinct, etc, on particular mint products, I have normally been able to at LEAST make it worth my while...you know what i mean..."buying 2 of these, selling one, and mine is virtually free". The first time I DIDNT agree with the consensus, and didnt buy, well, lets just say it was with the '20th Anniversary ASE Set' ....well, enough for now...starting to get that queasy feeling again...

[RWB]

That the Mint should have scheduled its website changes during the slowest time period, and certainly could have managed it much better for a simple weekend transition is obvious. However, I don’t think it’s fair for collectors to blame them for the confusion of products. Most of the products are dictated by the Congress, as well as maximum/minimum production quantities, issue specifications and price. As distributor of products, the Mint’s primary rolls is to ensure fair distribution. They have to serve those individuals who order products for personal use, and do what they can to be sure that speculators do not manipulate availability.

 

Praise and condemnation should, be apportioned based on responsibility, not who is forced to be the messenger.

 

[MorganMan]

Just remember this quote:

 

"I do not see how our politicians in Washington could screw up things much worse than they are today, but I am confident that they will somehow figure it out"

 

 

[BillJones]

I have my doubts that the three piece will sell out. The limit of 25,000 Proofs at a premium price is actually on the high side relative to what I would estimate to be the mintage.

 

Quite often the mint has only sold around 40,000 Proof $5 gold coins. Perhaps 25,000 of them will be in this 3 piece set, but I kind of doubt it.

[EZ_E]

Are we nearing the day when the U.S. Mint produces a 1 kilo gold commemorative for the inventor of the pizza and makes a .9999 Gold coin in the shape of a pizza with pepperoni and anchovies?

 

Witty post!

[bsshog40]

I kind of agree a little here. The mints dates for scheduled products are known well in advance. The mint also knows what type of public reaction they've been getting for the purchases of these modern issues for some time now. With the availibility to order on-line and by phone, the mint surely knows what type of workload this takes off thier normal Cust. Serv. reps. I know they are not resposible for the dates set, but you would think that they would have used a little more common sense to prepare for the issue date of such coins not only for the convenience of faster customer service, but also not to overload thier staffing.

[MorganMan]

I kind of agree a little here. The mints dates for scheduled products are known well in advance. The mint also knows what type of public reaction they've been getting for the purchases of these modern issues for some time now. With the availibility to order on-line and by phone, the mint surely knows what type of workload this takes off thier normal Cust. Serv. reps. I know they are not resposible for the dates set, but you would think that they would have used a little more common sense to prepare for the issue date of such coins not only for the convenience of faster customer service, but also not to overload thier staffing.

 

 

NO such thing in government bureaucracies

 

MM

[Dwaine]

All I know is I am ready for the site to come back online.

[BillJones]

....just look at some of the ebay pre-sale prices that have closed for that 3 coin proof set already....over $600, with a number of them BIN'ed at over $600 as I write this.

 

This is nutty.

 

I'll give you a piece of advice. If you want to find a way to lose money GUARANTEED, pay $600 for this set. You'll be sorry you did ...

 

Heck, I figure on losing money at the issue price, which shows what a lemming of a collector I am.

[astrostu]

All I know is I am ready for the site to come back online.

 

Amen. I just sat on hold listening to whining jazz music for about 10 minutes to place my order. I swear these people at the Mint's outsourced call center need to take a lesson in HOW TO SPEAK ENGLISH. I am so sick of calling these people that I can't understand.

 

But, I was able to place my order for my ASE, 3-piece commemorative proof set, and bag of Kennedies. The stuff's on backorder until February, but at least it's on order and not sold out. What's depressing is that they'll probably get here before my new computer does due to the backordered graphics card. Now to sit here and wait ...

[World Colonial]

Obviously, I am not up to date with mint products because I do even know what set is being discussed here. However, if you are dissatisfied with the mint or its products, maybe you should just collect something else?

 

I do not own any commemoratives, modern or classic, but to me, much of what the mint has issued since 1982 to commemorate "special" events is a bunch of . Many of the designs are not good (or awful) and the subject covered is not that significant. Plus, except as conditional rarities (with commensurate ridiculous prices), all of them are common.

[DC Dawg]

If any of you are interested in complaining in print, shorten your kvetch to a few paragraphs and send it to david.harper@fwpubs.com. He'll probably be printing a few in Numismatic News over the next few weeks.

 

Scott

[TheMightyDuke]

BillJones.....you are 100% correct about those paying $600 and more for PRE ISSUE (takes big nads to go the pre-sale route this early in the offering). I would NEVER pay that....I am just fortunate that when I got connected, I had a CSR whose name was Melissa (yep, you guessed it, perfect English, and not as a second language), and I had my order placed perfectly the first time, only had to read my CC # once, and boom, done. Dont get me wrong, it could very well be tougher on those CSR's who take the calls that CANT hear English as fluently as its SPOKEN....one wrong number from a CC#, or item #, and fur can fly....and its all due to the fact that noone can order online. Can you imagine walking into your cubicle/to your desk (whatever the set-up), knowing that the web site is still not able to take orders, you ae there 5 minutes early to just ease into the day and as soon as your phone rings the first time, 'it aint gonna stop till your day is done'. That cant make for a great atmosphere in the work place.

 

On the proof set not selling out....I see it being sold out before the first person is able to log on once the site gets up and running. If I am WRONG (theres always a first time for everything...yeah, right! ), I am wondering if, due to the nonsense that has happened with this offering, the MS gold might be a sleeper. We will all have to see how this plays out. If it had been business as usual, web site up and running at 12:00 high on the 15th, this could have been a boring, 'post your order #', and count the minutes till the 3 piecer was sold out. The 'throwback to the dark ages' of having to (gasp) actually phone the mint, coupled with the household limit of a single 3 piece proof set per, definitely does make this particular offering a wild card and anything can happen....thats why I called this afternoon and put in another order.....though, when I called today, it was like calling the pizza guy....rang a few times, pressed one for an order, and 5 minutes later was printing my order confirm from my email. Stay tuned, this could be a fun/exhilirating/frustrating/depressing scenario.

 

MrYuk...thanx for finding the humor in that. When I wrote the whole pizza thing, I was centered on the plethora of mint offerings for the coming year, and with as great a number of commems on the horizon as we are going to see this year, it seemed like a play taken from the RCM playbook, but suddenly had a hankering for some cold pizza from last nite, and the whole thing just fell into place.....I am not one to laugh at my own lines, but I re-read it just before this reply, and I did chuckle myself...thanx! Lastly, I have said it before and I will say it again....... the RCM makes BEAUTIFUL coins...Swarovski crystal in a coin? Dontcha know the bride just HAD to get one of THOSE bad boys...'its a coin, no, its crystal, no, a coin, no, crystal!!! There's gotta be some serious 'sit arounds' passing the 'fatties' to come up with some of those ideas. The U.S. Mint, whether they realize it or not, just made 2008 a very interesting year ...and I am not a big 'modern' guy, nor am I a big buyer of mint products (AGE mainly for the bullion play), but this Bald Eagle thing could be a wild ride!!!

[jtryka]

What in the hell are we talking about here? I never really got it in the original post, but does this have something to do with the eagle commemoratives? Ugh, they are all ugly as far as I am concerned and I will not order a single one of them. I am limiting my purchases from the mint to the annual sets/coins plus any commems that are based on classic designs (yay! I have 2 gold spouses to buy this year!). The rest is just dreck in my opinion. The only question is whether this is more like 1936 or the more recent peak in the early 1990s. My guess is the former as the mint just can't control themselves at this point, In 5 years most of these coins will be below issue price, the only exception being if gold exceeds $3,000 per ounce and silver gets above $100...

[TheMightyDuke]

Jtryka...for someone that has to ask "What in the hell are we talking about here? I never really got it in the original post, but does this have something to do with the eagle commemoratives?", you certainly hit the nail on the head. I dont know if the consensus is that I am a modern guy, a modern commem guy, etc..but I am NOT either of those. Once upon a time, when the '82 Washington silver half commem made its emergence from the mushroom cloud of shame associated with commemoratives from as late as , I started to take a look at the series, and went with it. Took my time, as prices for all but a few were very reasonable, some designs were great, some causes were great...but that prices were the thing....a set could be put together for relatively short $$, unless you could find that elusive MS69 Washington half---man, they were good as gold, then, suddenly one day, they came out of the woodwork like 'cockaroaches'...when could a modern set (and for all intents and purporses, modern is from 1982 on, not 1965 on) NOT be put together and have the aggregate grade of at LEAST MS69??? Thank YOU Mr. 1982 Washington Half (MS69's of that coin were close to $1,000 even a few short years ago, say mid/late '90's, even now, its a $600 coin. (For comparison sakes, that 1982 Washington Commem Silver Half was every bit a $2000 coin, yet an 1899-P Morgan, graded by either NGC or PCGS was a $90 coin in MS63/MS64!!! A dollar coin, intrinsic value, that was 100 years old, had a mintage of 330,000, cost under a 'C' note (and you could get superior examples even in 63/64 back then), but a silver half, mintage of over 2.2million, and less than 15 years old commands more money than, say, commems celebrating events such as WWII, the Civil War, etc....something is wrong there for sure. Lets not even get to Olympic issues....1936 is rumored to be a year for 'excess', 'greed', whatever spin you want to put on it, but the Olympic issues of the modern commems certainly have those beat Sure, there were some nice coins, nice themesand plenty to choose from. The only thing was that there were TONS of them. There was no way these had any reason to go up in value (and, well, honestly, yes, that was one factor in assembling one fo these sets....you have to admit, with the exception of a few issues-the WWII themed, the Civil War themed, National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial, Black Revolutionary War Patriots, and the Special Olympics, and lets not forget the Silver Buffalo....those are worthy of their design, cause, fund distribution, etc. On the OTHER hand, how many Olympic designs do we need? Say what you want, but from 1983-1996, these years were inundated with olympic medals (funny, but there were olympic games way back in the '20's and '30's and we didnt see any commems for the olympics then. I think what we may see here with the Bald Eagle is THE offering for 2008 that ISNT tied up in red tape, languishing on the site all year, WILL see premiums on the secondary market and they WILL be sizable. Simply put, by putting the 'early bird' (pardon the pun) pricing/order limitations on some of these options (and 25,000 limit IS going to sustain a nice premium....these WILL sustain a nice premium simply because of the limit....

 

The U.S. Mint is at it again, and if they were smart, they would slow it down, do their homework, realize what works and what go from there. People dont want to have to buy evey item the mint produces just to keep current, but they WOULD if the picking were slimmer, more meaningful, more eye appealing (man, Eunice Shriver makes Susan B. Anthony look like Pamela Anderson). It's time the mint took a step back, regrouped, and started to let the dog wag the tail again. Unless you are talking about a Sunday afternoon, Pats vs the Chargers luncheon buffet, QUALITY wins over QUANTITY....and the mint is clearly on its way to going back to the days of old and minting just about any old commem that has a petition backing it up (come on, a Soccer commem in this country? The biggest soccer stars in the world HAVE to come to the USA to play to give the sport any credibility -think Pele, Freddie Adu, Beckham-and I dont know soccer from my a**-, and it STILL does no good...heck, look at the Revolution.....soccers answer to the mighty Buffalo Bills (and the soccer referrenceis just one of many angles here)...., . Lastly, yes, I did have a complete Modern Commem Half collection....with the Washie in MS68 (the MS69 could have plummeted to $100, and ONLY then would I have been a buyer)....it was stagnant series, then prices started to tumble when the MS69 Washies came out from hiding. You can talk about Walkers all you want...the design is GORGEOUS and they will have their resurgence......common mint specials from here on out, unless something drastically changes, will suffer and languish. It's too bad the classic commems have this fate also, at least those designs are works of art. I would rather have a 1948-S Booker T Washington with a mintage of 8,005 in MS65 than a 1982-D George Washington with a mintage of over 2.2 million in MS69. Gold issues, well, they will always be another ball game, and perhaps there will be another Jackie Robinson issue, perhaps not....BUT.......

 

The Mint should stick to what works....they KNOW what works, they should LISTEN to those who take the time to answer surveys.....perhaps this Bald Eagle fiasco WASNT coincidence......

[BULLY]

Obviously, I am not up to date with mint products because I do even know what set is being discussed here. However, if you are dissatisfied with the mint or its products, maybe you should just collect something else?

 

 

Maybe I am just sleep deprived, because I do know what's being discussed here, and I understand the frustration dealing with the Mint (as well as the problems we face as consumers requiring customer service in general).

 

I must respectfully disagree with this approach. Saying that if you are dissatisfied with the mint or its products and thus maybe you should just collect something else is just like when you hear someone say "Well, if you don't like the war in Iraq or [fill in a government policy] maybe you should leave the United States, you don't belong here."

 

The reality is, there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way to do things. People who manage call centers and process orders know this. The Mint performs these functions, and the people who failed miserably should be held accountable for their failures, the most recent in a long string of a poorly operated service operation.

 

Those who consume the products have a right to express their concerns. If not to the Mint, at least sharing it with one another stops their heads from exploding. Unfortunately with the Mint, it is unlike many other consumer products -- there isn't another source. Therefore, in this case a consumer can't say "I'll just go shop at Macy's instead of Sears" because the Mint is THE source for the products. Unfortunately, the "captive audience" syndrome is something about which I think the Mint is well aware, and it reflects in their performance.

[BillJones]

Unfortunately with the Mint, it is unlike many other consumer products -- there isn't another source. Therefore, in this case a consumer can't say "I'll just go shop at Macy's instead of Sears" because the Mint is THE source for the products.

 

There are other sources, and that is to wait a while and buy these items in the secondary market. Of late collectors would been ahead if they waited a year or so and then bought their Proof sets from dealers. Since 2003 there has only been one Proof set, the 2004 clad set, that is selling for more than the issue price. All the rest can be purcased for less than the issue price from dealers.

[Conder101]

The 'throwback to the dark ages' of having to (gasp) actually phone the mint,

Dark ages? That's the Renaissance! Dark Ages was when you had to wait for you order coupons to arrive from the mint and send them back in with your check or money order. (no credit cards, no debit cards) Then you waited six months or more to see if your order was even accepted. You knew it was accepted when the coins showed up at your door. (The check of MO was cashed as soon as it came in though.) There was no way to confirm or check the status of the order, and it could not be canceled by you. If your order wasn't accepted after six to eight months you would get a letter from the mint telling you it was sold out and that they would be sending you a refund "in the near future" and then you might wait another three months or so for the refund check to arrive.

[BULLY]

Unfortunately with the Mint, it is unlike many other consumer products -- there isn't another source. Therefore, in this case a consumer can't say "I'll just go shop at Macy's instead of Sears" because the Mint is THE source for the products.

 

There are other sources, and that is to wait a while and buy these items in the secondary market. Of late collectors would been ahead if they waited a year or so and then bought their Proof sets from dealers. Since 2003 there has only been one Proof set, the 2004 clad set, that is selling for more than the issue price. All the rest can be purcased for less than the issue price from dealers.

 

Are there statistics on this, other than anecdotal? I just wonder: If this is true, and has been for four, now going on five YEARS, why would dealers continue to buy proof sets from the Mint in large quantities, knowing full well they are going to be selling them at a loss, even less than they actually paid for them from the original purchase price?

 

That said, proof sets are just ONE isolated product that the Mint sells, that re-sell for more on the secondary market, sometimes more within weeks, much less years later. Sometimes, even while the Mint is STILL selling the item! I'll never understand that one, perhaps people just don't KNOW that they CAN actually purchase items directly from the Mint? I digress... For instance, people buy:

 

Mint Sets

Silver proof sets

Proof Silver American Eagles

recently Uncirculated Silver Eagles

Proof Gold American Eagles

Proof Platinum American Eagles

Proof Gold Buffalo Coins

Commemoratives

Anniversary Sets/Editions, a la 20th Anniversary Eagles (Silver and Gold), 10th Anniversary Platinum Eagles

Rolls

Bags

 

Many of these products, arguably, sell at a significant premium on the secondary market after sell-out at the mint, especially those of particularly limited quantity.

[Conder101]

If this is true, and has been for four, now going on five YEARS, why would dealers continue to buy proof sets from the Mint in large quantities, knowing full well they are going to be selling them at a loss, even less than they actually paid for them from the original purchase price?

Because in the SHORT term the dealers can actually get a premium over issue for them from people wh don't want to wait for the mint to ship their backorder or worry about having to do returns. So when they first come out they sell above issue, the dealer sells off what he purchased from the mint and then the prices decline as the supply in the market increases. It is a gamble for the dealer because if he doesn't get his early he may miss the up market.

[BillJones]

I believe that some dealers also able to buy the "generic" mint products, like Proof sets and silver eagles, in bulk purchases for a discount under the issue prices. They sell the stuff in venues like "Coin World" at a minor premium over the issue price plus some shipping charges that cover their mailing costs and then some.

 

As for a statistical study about Proof sets selling for less than the issue price, you don't need one. All you need to do is pick up a copy of the Gray Sheet and compare the bid/ask prices with the issue prices since 2003. Only the 2004 clad set bids at more than the issue price. That year the mint unexpectedly stopped selling those sets in November before the year was out. In subsequent years the mint as been selling last year’s sets well into the following year.

 

Generally dealers will pay 10% in back of “bid” if they need the coins for stock. If they don’t need them, they will pay less or refuse to buy them at all.

 

[just-john]

still think you will be able to buy these cheaper already graded from dozens of places cheaper than ordering form the mint + shipping then shipping + to grading company and shipping + back +$20- TO $25 grading fee .

 

[TheMightyDuke]

Bully, you are 100% correct about the 'head exploding' thing. Though, how many heads were ready to explode after hitting redial for the umpteenth thousandth time and getting that damn message??? Its nice to have a place like this to vent on....whether respones are positive or negative to your posting, at least your rant is being read, consumed, and commented on. Also, Bully, you are right, there ARE many mint products that sell for significant premiums over issue price...1995-W Proof Silver Eagle, and the Jackie Robinson gold are just 2 that dont even have to pop in my head....they are always there, as everyone had an equal chance to grab those product.....its only a matter of time till we see another one of them, and I dont mean the 2006-W ASE, or other 'bullion' items (which, some of the 1/4 oz gold, and alot of the plat issues are in that special 'not just bullion' category, those are worth holding on to, for sure). I mean just a regular issue, non bullion item....and does anyone know what the MAX mintage of the Jackie Robinson $5 gold commems could have been? And to think, only 5,174 were sold......

 

RWB, its not the confusion of products that has me (not to mention the many others that routinely call the mint/have a subscription) in a tizzy here. Just as you said in the first line of your post, they should have arranged the changeover to a time where the imposition/hassle on their CUSTOMERS would have been at a minimum (wouldnt Christmas eve day been a good starting point?). And lastly, RWB, whether its fair or not, it is quite often (as it has been for centuries) the messenger who takes the flak, or abuse...hell, I wouldnt have wanted to be a messenger bringing Henry the VIIIth some bad news!)

 

Billjones, there ARE other sources (ebay, as has been mentioned already), you are correct (ebay, as has been mentioned already). BUT, those are the sources, for right now, at the moment, where you WILL have to pay exhorbitant premiums (again, ebay and those $600 BIN's...gotta check and see what final sales $$ are from yesterday and today). So, for those that dont realize the mint is still selling them (or have they reached the max?), that, unfortunately, is the only source, thus far (its been a flippers PARADISE, no, NIRVANA, with some mint products in the last couple years, hasnt it....I wish I listened to posters here and ATS that foresaw the 20th Anniversary sets as a MAJOR score, and that set only ran $100 from the mint...dope slapping myself over that one for almost 2 years now..)

 

Lastly, Conder101, man, am I glad I wasnt into the hobby, or mint products at least, when you had to mail an order in (and you just showed your age, man..). I know when I am waiting on something from snail mail (whether if its a coin, or something non coin related), if it takes more than 7 days, man, I start thinking 'trouble on the horizon', as we ALL know how well the USPS performs. I dont know if I would have gone completely insane waiting that long for product to arrive, IF it arrived (having my money tied up THAT long, and then getting a letter stating my money would be refunded and then taking that long to get it back? I mean, you are talking about just about a full year, no? You would have seen me on MSN, FOXNews, CNN, the papers...'the perpetrator just kept mumbling Freakin' U.S. Mint over and over as he was being taken away'....thats just insane to expect people to accept that as a business practice, am I wrong?). Man, computers/email has put a whole new meaning to 'instant gratification'...and get your minds out of the gutters!!