elephant token missing?

[cfaller-migration]

Hello folks,

I sent my 1694 Elephant token to NGC to be evaluated. I received the box back yesturday with the paperwork, but no coin. I was very upset. I called the company to see what happened. They reviewed the video of the packaging and said they did everything correctly? I have not heard back from them saying if they have found my coin? I am hoping for a call saying it was human error and they have found the coin. Has this happened to anyone else?

 

Candace

[MunkyMan95]

Was the package opened? What did the paperwork say? Did they slab the coin?

[pendragon1998]

Note to Architecht -

 

This needs to be posted in the "Ask NGC" forum.

[TomB]

It would be upsetting to have something "disappear", but take comfort in the fact that it was a copy worth only a few dollars and not the real thing.

[MarkFeld]

It would be upsetting to have something "disappear", but take comfort in the fact that it was a copy worth only a few dollars and not the real thing.

Tom, while I, too, hope that makes Candace feel better, there are other important considerations here. The token might have a lot of sentimental value to her, and monetary value aside, I think most people would be extremely upset about the situation, as described. Hopefully the item will be found and a good explanation provided.

[TomB]

That's true.

[gmarguli]

Are you sure it's not in the box? For bodybagged coins they can get hidden very easily in the boxes. That's why NGC usually "flags" them with a blue plastic sticky, but even then they can get hidden. I've had this happen to me more than once.

[cfaller-migration]

The only paperwork I recieved was the copy I sent to them. There was no paperwork from NGC. Hey Tom, thanks for your consideration and your "disappear" comment. Whatever that is suppose to mean. I feel the warmth. I have checked the box, my helper check the box, my boyfriend did and so did the cops. It's not there. When I called NGC, the packaging director said it doesn't happen that often. So obviously it does happen. Thanks Mark for your support. The coin does mean a lot to me. My Grandfather just past away and left me his entire collection that took him 50 years to collect. So yes I hold value to that token. His collection will be past down to my children and hopefully theirs.

Candace

[TomB]

The "disappear" comment meant that some folks don't actually include all the items in their packages that they think they have included, therefore, the token might show up within your home or business at some point. Additionally, since NGC is already looking into the matter, it may end up that it is still in-house at NGC.

 

Hey, Candace, take the rest of my comments any way you want. Some folks are determined to be offended no matter what. Have a nice day.

[MarkFeld]

The only paperwork I recieved was the copy I sent to them. There was no paperwork from NGC. Hey Tom, thanks for your consideration and your "disappear" comment. Whatever that is suppose to mean. I feel the warmth. I have checked the box, my helper check the box, my boyfriend did and so did the cops. It's not there. When I called NGC, the packaging director said it doesn't happen that often. So obviously it does happen. Thanks Mark for your support. The coin does mean a lot to me. My Grandfather just past away and left me his entire collection that took him 50 years to collect. So yes I hold value to that token. His collection will be past down to my children and hopefully theirs.

Candace

Candace, if NGC evaluated the coin, regardless of what determination they made, there should be a record of it in their system under the invoice number it was submitted under. To your knowledge, did the person you spoke with look up the invoice information? I am unclear from your posts as to whether you submitted it on one of NGC's invoices.

[awb]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but does it seem strange to anyone else that within the course of ten days we go from "I have this old coin" to "It's already been returned from NGC"?

[MarkFeld]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but does it seem strange to anyone else that within the course of ten days we go from "I have this old coin" to "It's already been returned from NGC"?

Unusual, yes, but some people act far more quickly than others. Also, I see no reason to doubt what we have been told. If it's not true, NGC could easily debunk it. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt unless and until there is a very good reason not to.

[gmarguli]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but does it seem strange to anyone else that within the course of ten days we go from "I have this old coin" to "It's already been returned from NGC"?

 

Sure that is unusually quick, but I've had coins literally go door to door in a week and that was not an Express shipment!

 

Also, looking thru several of the OP posts, I do not see where they said they had the coin currently in their possession. I did see a post saying it was sent to NGC, but it may have been submitted much earlier and the OP just came here asking about it while waiting for the results. Or I could have missed their info in the posts I did not read.

[awb]

Also, looking thru several of the OP posts, I do not see where they said they had the coin currently in their possession. I did see a post saying it was sent to NGC, but it may have been submitted much earlier and the OP just came here asking about it while waiting for the results.

You're right about the first, and I thought of the second as well. Hopefully there's nothing funny going on.

[cpm9ball]

Has this happened to anyone else?

 

Candace

 

Candace, I just got around to reading this thread, so please accept my apology for not responding sooner.

 

I had a similar experience in 2004 or 2005. It occurred at NGC's old facility, and it was during the time when non-dealer members (like me) could make an appointment to deliver their submissions in person. I only live 75 minutes from Sarasota, and I was new at submitting coins. If I recall correctly, Maggie had helped me with the paperwork. When it came time to pick up the coins, one of them was missing. Some of the staff members were looking everywhere for it, and they finally discovered that it was in the vault the whole time, but it had been put in the wrong place.

 

I can only hope that your token will turn up, too.

 

Chris

[pendragon1998]

I'm just curious - did you join NGC to submit the coin or submit through another member? I mean you didn't just mail the coin over to get their opinion, right?

[cfaller-migration]

Mark,

I submitted on their invoice. I am not familar with how it suppose to go because this is the first and only coin I have submitted. I received the yellow copy back of the paperwork I filled out. There is nothing from NGC of their evaluation. It's only the info I wrote. I would think with the paperwork would be their evaluation? Other wise, what am I paying for? I didn't ask their determination on Friday because the conversation was filled with what happened to this coin.

Tom, obviously I took your message wrong. This is a very sensitive matter to me. It's unbelievable to believe NGC would make such an error so I am a little defensive on others Interpretation. Lucky for me, my helper was standing right beside me when I opened the package and she can back up my storey of it was not there. I looked, then she looked. I am truly hoping this was just human error and they find my coin on a bench or maybe fallen to the floor. I am sure they deal with a large quanity of coins and sometimes one slips through the cracks.

Candace

[cfaller-migration]

Pendragon,

I joined NGC to submit this one coin. I have had several dealers look at the token and I received mixed opinions. Some swore by it, others had no doubt it was a fake. The rather large picture I have is because I brought it to a dealer and he was not sure. He believed the chances were high it was real, so he had his photographer take a picture, enlarge the picture, so they could e-mail it to a few people to get their opinion. I received the welcome package and then over nighted the coin to NGC. (Which took five days) Because of the potencial value of the coin, I had to pay the $125.00 for the 24 express option. That is why I received the coin back so quickly. And yes, I posted the ad after I submitted the coin to get feedback from people that know more about coins than I do.

CPM,

I am happy to hear that this has happened to someone else. Thank-you for your post. It also gives me hope that the coin will be found.

Candace

[MarkFeld]

Mark,

I submitted on their invoice. I am not familar with how it suppose to go because this is the first and only coin I have submitted. I received the yellow copy back of the paperwork I filled out. There is nothing from NGC of their evaluation. It's only the info I wrote. I would think with the paperwork would be their evaluation? Other wise, what am I paying for? I didn't ask their determination on Friday because the conversation was filled with what happened to this coin.

Tom, obviously I took your message wrong. This is a very sensitive matter to me. It's unbelievable to believe NGC would make such an error so I am a little defensive on others Interpretation. Lucky for me, my helper was standing right beside me when I opened the package and she can back up my storey of it was not there. I looked, then she looked. I am truly hoping this was just human error and they find my coin on a bench or maybe fallen to the floor. I am sure they deal with a large quanity of coins and sometimes one slips through the cracks.

Candace

Candace, I'd recommend that you call NGC customer service on Monday and briefly explain the situation. Also, provide them with the invoice number and ask what the grading results were for the item. Best of luck to you.

[cpm9ball]

Mark,

I submitted on their invoice. I am not familar with how it suppose to go because this is the first and only coin I have submitted. I received the yellow copy back of the paperwork I filled out. There is nothing from NGC of their evaluation. It's only the info I wrote. I would think with the paperwork would be their evaluation?Candace

 

Candace, is the copy you received yellow or gold? The yellow copy is for Receiving and the gold copy is supposed to be kept by the Submitter. Is it possible that NGC simply returned the copy you were supposed to keep and your token is still somewhere in process...........Received/Scheduled for Grading/Finalized and Shipped?

 

Chris

[MorganMan]

One thing I would do that would quickly give you an answer to some questions is login and check your order status online........

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/members/OrderStatusCoin.aspx

 

MM

[bsshog40]

Good point Chris!!!

[jesbroken]

Odd, that NGC would ship back the customer's copy of an invoice in a coin box, or box of any kind. .

 

Candace, what have you found when you log on to the order status page that Morgan Man provided you. If it has been more than 10 days since you mailed it they should have acknowledged receipt by now.

 

I am sure they will find your coin if it is in their arena. Keep us informed.

[TomB]

Candace, please understand that as far as I am concerned there was nothing that you did wrong regarding our exchange. As I have told others in the past, this text-based medium encourages misinterpretation of posts on occasion since many of us are either near-strangers or slightly more than acquaintances and we cannot share tone of voice, inflection or body language. I have no doubt that I took what you wrote in a manner that might not have been consistent with your intent, too, but I am accustomed to these issues and it did not stick with me. Good luck with your efforts to track down your piece.

[cfaller-migration]

Chris,

The copy was yellow. I am planning on making many phone calls today to try to get some answers. I will also take your advice and try to go to the website you mentioned to see what the results are. I have not done this before, so I am very unclear of how the process works. However, I would think they would be something written with the delivery saying what the results are?

Candace

[cfaller-migration]

Tom,

How can you be so certain this was a copy? I have had ten different coin dealers look at this and 1/2 thought it was real and 1/2 thought it was fake. So, how can you be so certain by a picture it's not real? I mean no dissrespect. I was just wondering.

Candace

[MunkyMan95]

Candace, I would trust Tom on this one. He's been collecting and studying coins for a very long time. He's correct 99% of the time.

 

The only reason I can come up with that the dealer's opinions of the coin were different is because some dealers had probably never seen this token before, or if they had seen one before, they hadn't seen many of them. They might be knowledgeable enough in the field to give an expert answer.

[TomB]

I'm confident it is a copy for a few reasons. The first is that there are only three (three!) known original examples of this token, which means that finding another original would be extraordinarily rare. Additionally, until the mid-1970s there was no Federal US requirement to have "COPY" or "REPLICA" stamped onto copies of tokens or coins. It was not until the Hobby Protection Act of 1973 that these requirements for labels that identified numismatic copies, or required the date of actual manufacture, were put into place. Until this Act was passed there were many thousands of copies of this and other tokens made, as well as copies of nearly every colonial or rare US issue. These unattributed copies emerge from older collections on a daily basis and make many of the recipients of them believe they have found something rare and valuable. In fact, I think I can recall a few instances of folks joining the forums specifically to ask about these inherited or found copies. Unfortunately, these copies are typically only worth a few dollars each. Lastly, if you compare an image of a known 1694 New England Elephant token, as published in the Red Book with what appear to be the folded images that seem to have been originally taken with a camera of your piece, you will see that the lettering and numbering is of a completely different style, indicating that it is not one of the pieces from the original die pair.

 

By the way, are the images you provided to us really folded images from a printout of a camera image? If so, why didn't you share the original, electronic image?

[MikeKing]

As I have told others in the past, this text-based medium encourages misinterpretation of posts on occasion since many of us are either near-strangers or slightly more than acquaintances and we cannot share tone of voice, inflection or body language. .

 

so that's why I hate you so much???

[TomB]

As I have told others in the past, this text-based medium encourages misinterpretation of posts on occasion since many of us are either near-strangers or slightly more than acquaintances and we cannot share tone of voice, inflection or body language. .

 

so that's why I hate you so much???

No, there's no misinterpretation that causes you to hate me so much, I've earned it.