Is 63 a dangerous grade?

[MikeInFL]

I see a lot of interesting coins in 63 slabs...

 

Many are business struck AU 63s, with high-point rub yet pretty -- net graded UP coins.

 

Many are proofs are cleaned/hairlined PF 65 or 64s -- net graded DOWN coins.

 

However, it has been my experience that rarely are there any "real" or "true" MS/PF 63 coins. Coins neither net graded up or net graded down.

 

Is 63 a dangerous grade?

[cpm9ball]

I think it's great for DMPL Morgans. it keeps the value down but doesn't detract from the mirrored fields.

 

Chris

[IGWT]

However, it has been my experience that rarely are there any "real" or "true" MS/PF 63 coins. Coins neither net graded up or net graded down.

 

Every coin is net graded based on imperfections of various kinds. I don't see coins graded 63 any different in this respect.

[MikeInFL]

However, it has been my experience that rarely are there any "real" or "true" MS/PF 63 coins. Coins neither net graded up or net graded down.

 

Every coin is net graded based on imperfections of various kinds. I don't see coins graded 63 any different in this respect.

 

Just so we're clear....I'm not suggesting that they are graded any differently, only that the % of "not net graded" coins in 63 is lower than virtually any other grade (62 may be a close second) -- and this poses some challenges when evaluating a grade/value particularly when considering "market acceptability" of problems and other issues/concerns.

 

Do you disagree?...Mike

[Tradedollarnut]

what do you mean by 'not net graded' coins?

[MikeInFL]

"Not net graded" is when the technical grade = market grade, i.e. not net graded up or down based on eye appeal or problems.

[IGWT]

Just so we're clear....I'm not suggesting that they are graded any differently, only that the % of "not net graded" coins in 63 is lower than virtually any other grade (62 may be a close second) -- and this poses some challenges when evaluating a grade/value.

 

Do you disagree?...Mike

 

Either that or I'm not understanding your point. The way I look at it, every 63 is net graded, as is every coin from a 69 on down to a Poor-1. Are you suggesting that a greater percentage of 63s are marked by some problem that should result in a no-grade? If so, I'd still disagree, at least in the areas with which I'm most familiar.

 

Edited to add:

 

"Not net graded" is when the technical grade = market grade, i.e. not net graded up or down based on eye appeal or problems.

 

That's where you lose me. Isn't a 63 just a 64 (or 65 or 66) that has been net graded down because it has defects unacceptable at the higher levels?

[physics-fan3.14]

I think 63 is dangerous. It's right there between 62 and 64, hiding, lurking. You need to watch out for it. I'm actually a little scared of it.

[moovyz]

I think I understand what he is getting at, if I may try to take a stab at it...

 

 

A coin is minted from new dies, should run MS65-67 with the normal bag marks, transit brushes, etc. For a coin to grade as a 63, obverse and reverse the same condition, this would have to be from very used dies or have had a realy rough trip to actually still be in Mint State, no circulation.

 

 

I hope this is what you were getting at. I have often wondered this myself. Most 63's I've seen or owned got to that grade do to something specific on EITHER the obverse or reverse that dropped it down. Therefore, a "true" 63 is hard to find. They are usually, as he said, graded up or down from a different grade due to a specific problems (down) or exceptional eye appeal (up).

 

 

Perhaps this is not what he meant at all. If not, my apologies for getting into this thread. But I think that this might be what he is referring to.

[moovyz]

Oh, and therefore the answer to the question "is 63 a dangerous grade?"... I would agree that Yes, it is going to usually involve a coin that will probably bring varied opinions.

[moovyz]

What about this aspect of this subject...

 

 

I saw an MS64RB IHC that was a spectacular stike and the color was abolutely red. But the coin was graded by PCGS as a 64RB. I own a similar 63RB. I think that, in both instances, the coins were likely cleaned, many years previous, but PCGS "punished" the coin by the lesser grade. From my research, many of these coins were BB'd 1 or more times for "questionable color" but eventually got graded on subsequent re-submissions. PCGS, IMO, knows that the coins are MS and are simply "too pretty" to keep BBing, but they concede these facts only after dropping the grade.

 

 

This seems to be more prevalent in my favorite issue, IHC's. I've seen numerous examples of severe undergrading, mostly by PCGS.

 

 

Wouldn't this also be one of those areas where a coin is "net graded down" to a 64 or 63, but based on some other reason than a rub, or in the case of a dipped silver, cleaned?

[Oldtrader3]

I have been buying classic U.S. coins with a relatively modest budget for most of the (40+) years that I have been collecting. This period includes all of the (27+) years that PCGS and NGC have been around. The multiple of denomination sets that I have built (or attempted to build) run the gamut from Lincoln cents to Saint Gaudens gold plus multiple type sets, all grading AU55 to MS65. These coins were all purchased with spending limits set according to best-buy for cost and scarcity. Many, many of these coins have been slabbed, graded MS63 coins. I have received MS63 to MS64+ prices, for those denominations, series and grades, on most all MS63 coins that I have sold. Hopefully after (40) years, I can at least fairly grade.

 

IMHO, it is a slippery slope to generalize about any grade of slabbed coin. Almost any grade can be an overlooked higher grade coin or pushed lower grade coin. Often toning or toning color is the determining price factor, not strike or surfaces. Additionally, many MS63 coins are indeed fairly graded MS63 coins for reasons of strike, die wear or slight luster impairment. MS63 is a legitimate grade. I own and can show many examples of coins that are fairly graded MS63 coins, not downgrades or overgraded sliders. A fair percentage of MS63 graded coins are indeed MS63! Statistically probably about 65% of the population (or so) are accurately graded. Crackout artists do not target MS63 as much as they do MS64 and up coins, because of the optimim-price-point break between MS64 and MS65 coins.

 

Then again some years ago, many dealers/ collectors felt that MS64 coins were poor investments because they were only coins that were not good enough to get into MS65 slabs. The got-ya is, in my opinion MS62 coins in the present market that are pushed sliders. I do not hesitate to buy a fairly graded MS63, especially if a better date or series. I do however look over MS62 coins and pass on paying the money unless they are super AU58+ coins.

 

My final point is that, I have been building a Civil War and Reconstruction Period type set for some time with the usual difficulties of finding nice specimens. I am trying to keep the minor demoninations in grades of MS63 or better and have had a really long, tough search to find the specimens that I have acquired. The pursuit of MS63 coins issued during earlier eras and representing scarcer types is not a task for a collector without perserverance and a willingness to pass on purchase of many of the few coins that they do find, believe me.

[michael]

I see a lot of interesting coins in 63 slabs...

 

Many are business struck AU 63s, with high-point rub yet pretty -- net graded UP coins.

 

Many are proofs are cleaned/hairlined PF 65 or 64s -- net graded DOWN coins.

 

However, it has been my experience that rarely are there any "real" or "true" MS/PF 63 coins. Coins neither net graded up or net graded down.

 

Is 63 a dangerous grade?

 

yes it is a dangerous grade to the unknowledgable as most are as you stated above

 

but a few are actually really TRULY choice unc/proof WITH great eye appeal--but these are few and far between this grade is so subjective as again many are overgraded with rub or problems and some are truly choice and eye appealling

 

 

 

i think like anything else you got to choose really carefully and let the buyer beware

 

 

[michael]

wow i just thought of this

 

i consider myself to be ms 63

 

but the real question is would you take me home with you

 

 

 

 

[moovyz]

wow i just thought of this

 

i consider myself to be ms 63

 

but the real question is would you take me home with you

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, I just realized I'm a F-12 at best (with rim nicks)... now I'm depressed!

[leeg]

All coins are graded on their own merits. There are many reasons a coin grades 70 or PO1. Every grade on every day is subjective. I'd go crazy second guessing the TPG's on the grade of a particular coin. Enjoy your coins, regardless the grade.

[halfpint]

 

i think all grades have one thing in common...................subjectivity!

[MikeInFL]

I think I understand what he is getting at, if I may try to take a stab at it...

 

 

A coin is minted from new dies, should run MS65-67 with the normal bag marks, transit brushes, etc. For a coin to grade as a 63, obverse and reverse the same condition, this would have to be from very used dies or have had a realy rough trip to actually still be in Mint State, no circulation.

 

 

I hope this is what you were getting at. I have often wondered this myself. Most 63's I've seen or owned got to that grade do to something specific on EITHER the obverse or reverse that dropped it down. Therefore, a "true" 63 is hard to find. They are usually, as he said, graded up or down from a different grade due to a specific problems (down) or exceptional eye appeal (up).

 

 

Perhaps this is not what he meant at all. If not, my apologies for getting into this thread. But I think that this might be what he is referring to.

 

You hit the nail on the head. That was exactly what I was getting at.

[MikeInFL]

Just so we're clear....I'm not suggesting that they are graded any differently, only that the % of "not net graded" coins in 63 is lower than virtually any other grade (62 may be a close second) -- and this poses some challenges when evaluating a grade/value.

 

Do you disagree?...Mike

 

Either that or I'm not understanding your point. The way I look at it, every 63 is net graded, as is every coin from a 69 on down to a Poor-1. Are you suggesting that a greater percentage of 63s are marked by some problem that should result in a no-grade? If so, I'd still disagree, at least in the areas with which I'm most familiar.

 

Edited to add:

 

"Not net graded" is when the technical grade = market grade, i.e. not net graded up or down based on eye appeal or problems.

 

That's where you lose me. Isn't a 63 just a 64 (or 65 or 66) that has been net graded down because it has defects unacceptable at the higher levels?

 

I am not suggesting that the problems necessarily deserve a no-grade (although the type of problems typically have me dismissing the coin from consideration), but I am suggesting that 63s are, more often than other grades, "net graded coins".

 

To wit, the type of "problems" that appear on 63s are more "problematic" than, for instance, a problem that would net grade a 66 to a 65 or even a 65 to a 64. More often than not in 63s, these are scratches, hairlines, and other "problems", rather than nicks, impared luster, slight rub, etc. (things I don't consider "problems"). Either that, or they are very nice AUs.

 

This whole thought just came through an observation that most 63s (and 62s) I see are either nice AU coins (with lots of eye appeal) or problematic MS coins (with little eye appeal), and that it occurs more in this grade than any other.

 

Rarely when I see a coin graded 63 do I say to myself, "Self, that's a 63". 63s are often what I term "mystery grades" because it is often not immediately obvious (particularly with pictures) why a coin is graded 63.

 

But that's just me, and YMMV....Mike

 

p.s. all of the above doesn't apply to gold coins, as I do, quite frequently, see "true" 63s in gold.

[IGWT]

Why isn't a coin with one too many dings (on either the obverse or reverse) a "true" 63?

 

For a coin to grade as a 63, obverse and reverse the same condition, this would have to be from very used dies or have had a realy rough trip to actually still be in Mint State, no circulation.

 

Who said that a 63 by definition hasn't circulated? Even many true gems almost certainly saw circulation.

[MikeInFL]

Why isn't a coin with one too many dings (on either the obverse or reverse) a "true" 63?

It is! That's kind of the point. I just don't see many of them (outside of gold).

 

 

For a coin to grade as a 63, obverse and reverse the same condition, this would have to be from very used dies or have had a realy rough trip to actually still be in Mint State, no circulation.

Who said that a 63 by definition hasn't circulated? Even many true gems almost certainly saw circulation.

 

I certainly didn't....Mike

[IGWT]

I think I finally understand. It seems that we use the term "net graded" differently. I use it to refer to a grade determined by considering the full range of positive and negative attributes. You use it to refer to a grade arrived at by considering just a subset of positive and negative attributes, e.g., eye appeal and defects that result from mishandling/cleaning.

[michael]

after my post i totally agree!!!!!!

 

there are ms 63 most that are okie there are ms63 lots that are au 58 or just plain ugly

 

and there are ms 63 coins that have great eye appeal and are true choice unc's then only buy these coins if you can find them

 

add subjectivety tothe mix and you got an interesting hobby that is fun to keep searching around it

 

oh my

 

my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my

[michael]

thank goodness it is coins not food or we all would be running for the pot

 

:sick: :sick:

 

 

[relicsncoins]

I think it's very series specific. Copper alloy coins seem to take the biggest hit when it comes to eye appeal. A poorly toned copper coin is much more difficult to "improve" than a silver coin with poor toning. Let's say you have a morgan graded MS63 with negative eye appeal toning and you dip it, and it now ends up in 64 holder. If you tried the same thing with an Indian Head Cent, it would most likely be bagged for questionable color.

 

An original bag of Morgans I think would be the best way to see a range of MS grades. By deffinition, all of the coins should be uncirculated, however, there should be a range of grades from MS-60 up to probably MS-66 or 67 with most of the coins falling in that MS-62 to MS-64 range with MS-63 being the average coin.

 

The other thing to consider is the change in grading standards over the years. Here is a good example of how they have changed, even in the same company:

 

This Indian Head in the early 80's graded PF-60 with Anacs.

 

 

In 2006 the exact same coin with nothing done to it graded PF63 with the same company. The coin certainly has not changed, so the standards must've.

 

[michael]

wow i just thought of this

 

i consider myself to be ms 63

 

but the real question is would you take me home with you

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, I just realized I'm a F-12 at best (with rim nicks)... now I'm depressed!

 

well you are the the fine 12 1909 s vdb and i am the ms 63 1999 lincoln cent

 

so there you have it

 

i think i will take you moovyz......................................to red lobster just make sure you bring your charge card with you i am hungry and want a tender thick medium well steak and unlimited shrimps/scallops broiled that is

 

 

a great thread with many posts that make it clear that you got to buy the coin not the holder and make sure if you buy an ms 63 you pick the great eye apprealling premium quality killer coin that is truly uncirculated and they are out there but it will take lots of looking to find them

 

 

[MikeInFL]

I think I finally understand. It seems that we use the term "net graded" differently. I use it to refer to a grade determined by considering the full range of positive and negative attributes. You use it to refer to a grade arrived at by considering just a subset of positive and negative attributes, e.g., eye appeal and defects that result from mishandling/cleaning.

 

Bingo, and I apologize for my "loose" terminology....Mike

[chinook]

I dont like 63 as a grade. You have to pay too much and sell for too little.

[bsshog40]

I agree with MS63 being a basic grade. You can either lose money or make money on these. Depends on the day!

[MikeKing]

wow i just thought of this

 

i consider myself to be ms 63

 

but the real question is would you take me home with you

 

 

 

 

the question is....have you seen circulation?