PCGS Downgrade Review & Cost

[gmarguli]

I recently submitted two coins to PCGS for downgrade review. One was a PF70 AGE and the other an MS70 SF Commem.

 

The PF70 AGE had some spotting on both sides and a couple of tiny, yet visible with the naked eye hairlines.

 

The MS70 SF commem was atrocious. It had a fingerprint on the obverse and a long streak of residue. The reverse had some spotting. This coin also had a ton of shiny spots that should have EASILY kept it out of MS70.

 

Both were submitted at Long Beach for downgrade review. Several weeks later I received the two coins in the mail. PCGS had dipped both of them to remove the offending spots. While they look much better and are salable now, they still aren't up to the standard I would expect for the grade. This is not a big deal as I know how the TPG hate to buy back coins.

 

However, the kicker: PCGS charged me about $80 for the regrade for these coins. I was under the impression that if PCGS agreed the coins were overgraded that they would not charge you for this service. Since they dipped them, they must have felt the coins were not OK as is.

 

Did I get screwed? Or is this normal for PCGS to charge for their review process?

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Greg, it sounds as if you should get your fees back even though the grades were not lowered.

[braddick]

Yes. If PCGS simply had disagreed with you and returned the coins- you'de be out the fees.

 

But, you're right under the scenerio you describe. PCGS dipping the coins to turn them into 70's is an admission the coins were not near flawless, pre-dip.

 

Honestly, I'd have rather had them returned as 69's (or, by the sound of the commemorative, MS66'ish...) and a check for the difference as it is difficult to believe a coin not worthy of the 70 grade can be subsequently worked on to turn it into one.

[MarkFeld]

Yes. If PCGS simply had disagreed with you and returned the coins- you'de be out the fees.

 

But, you're right under the scenerio you describe. PCGS dipping the coins to turn them into 70's is an admission the coins were not near flawless, pre-dip.

 

Honestly, I'd have rather had them returned as 69's (or, by the sound of the commemorative, MS66'ish...) and a check for the difference as it is difficult to believe a coin not worthy of the 70 grade can be subsequently worked on to turn it into one.

I agree and feel that a submitter should be contacted and given options before/if something is going to be done to his coin.

[bsshog40]

I agree and feel that a submitter should be contacted and given options before/if something is going to be done to his coin.

 

I agree with that statement Mark. They wouldn't downgrade it I'm sure because wouldn't they have to pay the difference from 70 to 69?

[DC Dawg]

Wait... is dipping coins part of the grading or re-grading process? Is this something that is documented in their service? Did you authorize them to "damage" your coins? This sounds like a consumer protection issue and would contact PCGS about it. I'm sure that they would not want you to file a complaint with the Postal Service for Mail Fraud!

 

Scott

[James_OldeTowne]

However, the kicker: PCGS charged me about $80 for the regrade for these coins.

 

You got screwed.

[bsshog40]

I wouldn't post this ATS Greg, they'll probably ban you!

[gmarguli]

I wouldn't post this ATS Greg, they'll probably ban you!

 

They did about 5 years ago. I'm proud to be the 1st Banned Forum Member.

[bsshog40]

I thought that afterwards but I couldn't remember. I think ya got screwed on that $80 and I would be making me a ph call to them.

[braddick]

I wouldn't post this ATS Greg, they'll probably ban you!

 

They did about 5 years ago. I'm proud to be the 1st Banned Forum Member.

 

Littlewicher wasn't the first one banned?

[kryptonitecomics]

'D

[MarkFeld]

Wait... is dipping coins part of the grading or re-grading process? Is this something that is documented in their service? Did you authorize them to "damage" your coins? This sounds like a consumer protection issue and would contact PCGS about it. I'm sure that they would not want you to file a complaint with the Postal Service for Mail Fraud!

 

Scott

I don't care enough to look up the regulations but don't think that falls under "mail fraud". And threatening that likely won't do the submiiter any good.

[BillJones]

A post like this would be puffed and the person who posted would banned if this were put up on the PCGS site.

 

Hey, what am I talking about? PCGS has already banned Gmarguli from the PCGS site.

 

But why question is, why go to the expense of submitting such coins to PCGS in the first place? It seemed like a losing proposition from the get-go. Getting compensation from PCGS from THEIR mistakes is liking getting blood out of a stone.

[gmarguli]

I sent the SF commem to PCGS because there was just no way I could sell it as is. I have no doubt that if I put it on eBay or TeleTrade that it'd get returned. As much as I believe people who buy this stuff should live and die by the slab, I'd just have been ashamed to sell it.

 

The AGE was given to me with the intention of submitting it to PCGS for downgrade review as it had spotted.

[ibyandsellsmith]

You could always sell them as 69's, to me.

[MAULEMALL]

I wouldn't post this ATS Greg, they'll probably ban you!

 

They did about 5 years ago. I'm proud to be the 1st Banned Forum Member.

I believe I was #2...

[chinook]

What if PCGS has simply kept your coins and sent you new ones in their place?

[gmarguli]

I expected a call to discuss the coins. I an NOT unhappy that they were dipped and returned to me - even if they never contacted me prior to doing it. Based on the type of coins these are, that is fine with me. I'd have been fine with replacement coins. I'm just a little surprised that they are charging me for helping them take two pigs off the market. I'll call PCGS to discuss this, but if they don't reverse the charges, these will be the last coins that ever go to PCGS for review. I'll just let the pigs float around the market to showcase PCGS quality.

[JamminJ]

I'd just have been ashamed to sell it.

 

Who is this imposter that has hijacked Greg's account?

[DC Dawg]

Wait... is dipping coins part of the grading or re-grading process? Is this something that is documented in their service? Did you authorize them to "damage" your coins? This sounds like a consumer protection issue and would contact PCGS about it. I'm sure that they would not want you to file a complaint with the Postal Service for Mail Fraud!

 

Scott

I don't care enough to look up the regulations but don't think that falls under "mail fraud". And threatening that likely won't do the submiiter any good.

Mark... it is very easy... if dipping or any other "doctoring" is not part of the service and they do this without your permission, then it is a consumer breach of contract. With PCGS a California company, there is a law that does protect the consumer that is different than in many states (I once used this on a significant purchase). If you've committed this breach or fraudulently handle the transaction and put the coin in the mail back to the customer, that constitutes performing fraudulent business via the mail, also known as mail fraud. This is a federal felony.

 

Whether you use it or not, it is an option. Unfortunately, I have been involved in a recent transaction where the seller grossly misrepresented the item (non-numismatic) plus a few other issues. After a few weeks of back and forth, I handed everything over to the Postal Inspection Service who is investigating the merchant for mail fraud. This is a situation similar to the PCGS scenario and applicable, whether it is something you will use or not.

 

Scott

[MarkFeld]

Thanks Scott and best of luck.

[MikeKing]

Wait... is dipping coins part of the grading or re-grading process? Is this something that is documented in their service? Did you authorize them to "damage" your coins? This sounds like a consumer protection issue and would contact PCGS about it. I'm sure that they would not want you to file a complaint with the Postal Service for Mail Fraud!

 

Scott

 

I like this idea

[MikeKing]

I'm wondering if mail fraud can be extended to their membership info sent thru the mail that includes message board usage, for all those kicked off their board.

[braddick]

I think we all need to take a deep breath and relax...

 

[leeg]

[BillJones]

I sent the SF commem to PCGS because there was just no way I could sell it as is. I have no doubt that if I put it on eBay or TeleTrade that it'd get returned. As much as I believe people who buy this stuff should live and die by the slab, I'd just have been ashamed to sell it.

 

The AGE was given to me with the intention of submitting it to PCGS for downgrade review as it had spotted.

 

I've always viewed myself as an honest guy, but I would not go that far. When I got an over graded coin I would sell it to another dealer at at a heavey discount below the graded price. I'd make a little more money and he, well I guess, would make some more.

 

I've been screwed enough times on lower than warranted grades and unwarranted body bags to feel that this sort of equalled things out.

 

I'm not a devil , but I'm not a saint either. I would never sell an over graded coin to a retail customer, but with dealers it's "go with the flow." I'll freely tell them that coin X got a body bag or has problems, but if they can go ahead and buy it, well they can do with it as they please. With the retail guys I avoid selling such coins to them.

[gmarguli]

Multiple phone calls and almost two months later, I got a refund (sort of). They credited back $50 to my credit card. I'm guessing that they gave me back the dealer rate instead of the retail rate. I'm too exhausted to complain, so I'll take my $50 and be happy.

[Conder101]

But will you ever send in another downgrade?