Copper spots on gold coins – People have really lost their perspective.

[BillJones]

This weekend I sold a PCGS certified U.S. gold coin to another dealer. His immediate question before he looked at the piece was, “Does it have any copper spots?” The implication was if it did that he would pass.

 

I can understand the reluctance to buy gold coins with BIG, UGLY copper spots. They do detract from the appearance of the coin. Yet something light has always been perfectly acceptable to those who know their gold. In fact for some people copper spots are a marker for authenticity although I would hardly base my conclusions upon that.

 

Nowadays copper spots are a deal killer. A year and half ago I got a 1907 High Relief $20 gold on consignment for a client in PCGS MS-64. I thought the coin was really nice, but I showed it to a couple of other dealers and their comment was that the coin was “a problem.” Their comment was based upon the fact that there were a couple of minor copper spots on the reverse by the sun. To me they didn’t matter at all, but now it makes the coin a “non starter.”

 

The alternative is to send the coin to NCS or a coin doctor to have them dipped off. The resulting coin is what we veterans call “white gold.” The coin had a pale unnatural look that I find really unattractive. And as an added bonus, the copper spots often return in a couple of years. At that point you have the white coin AND the copper spots.

 

To me this aversion to light coppery toning or a minor spot or two is pure lunacy. What say you?

[kryptonitecomics]

I like toned gold.....copper spots can give the coin some real character as long as their not large and the entire surface doesn't appear spotty. (thumbs u

[James_OldeTowne]

As you said, big ugly spots can be a detraction. But whenever I see copper spots, my reaction is: Gee, this coin must not have been cleaned or dipped! I always explain this to my customers as well.

 

Good post!

[MikeKing]

the reaction to copper spots on gold that has copper content is just as irrational as the rest of the crazy crud people go after and spend tons of money on, it's also consistent with a real lack of understanding of coins by the people who spend enough money to determine market demand, and that is a damn darn shame.

[MBA101]

My dealer has guided me away from buying Gold with copper spots. It has been his experience for years that they are just plain harder to sell. Therefore I do not own any copper spots, even though when I think about it, it probably would not bother me that much.

[PerryHall]

Minor copper spots never bothered me. Often times, it gives the coin character.

[jtryka]

I generally try to avoid them, but in most cases they are easy to avoid, such as with common date Saints and Libs. After all, why put up with a 1904 Lib or 1924 Saint with copper spots when there are 100,000 out there that probably don't have them. If it was a 26-D Saint, or an 1855-O Lib, I probably wouldn't care in the least about a copper spot. To me, copper spots are only a major issue on generic coins.

[Oldtrader3]

I never was a fan of copper spots on gold coins. However I found, when collecting Coronet half-eagles, that you are going to look for a long time to find certain dates/MM's in the series that do not have copper spots. Alloy mixing for this series was the worst. Half eagles have to be the most challenging coins to find spot free.

[BillJones]

I generally try to avoid them, but in most cases they are easy to avoid, such as with common date Saints and Libs. After all, why put up with a 1904 Lib or 1924 Saint with copper spots when there are 100,000 out there that probably don't have them. If it was a 26-D Saint, or an 1855-O Lib, I probably wouldn't care in the least about a copper spot. To me, copper spots are only a major issue on generic coins.

 

I much prefer copper spots to dipped out “white gold.” When I first started looking for a 1795 small eagle $5 gold coin for my type set, the first piece I saw was in an AU-58 holder. That was the ideal grade for me, but the coin was not. It had been dipped almost white and looked to the less than astute buyer as if it had been minted yesterday. The price was pretty much what I expected, in the $50 grand neighborhood. I passed.

 

Later at the Baltimore show I spotted another one this time in an MS-62 holder. It had gotten the same treatment. It was dipped to “white gold.” This time the price was $125,000, which was out of my range. About a half hour later I ran into this piece. It was fate because the dealer was setting it down in his case when I saw it. I asked to see it almost before it had hit the velvet. It took me about 30 seconds to decide to buy it. Here’s what old gold should look like:

 

 

And here's how old gold "sorta" shouldn't look like:

 

 

I bought this one more than 20 years ago before I fully knew the whole score. It's OK, and it's even growning another copper skin ever so slowly, but it's not original.

 

I have an 1843-D quarter eagle that is truly a white coin. I bought that one for the luster, sharpness and the price knowing what it was. When I get that one out of the bank, I'll post a picture.

[gmarguli]

I find copper spots a big distraction. In fact, there is a high relief Saint in some monster grade (PF69 I think) that has a copper spot on the reverse. All I can ever think of when I see that coin is the copper spot and why hasn't it been dipped off.

 

For me, a copper spot is a deal breaker.

[MikeInFL]

Provided they are not large in size/number or particularly conspicuous, copper spots don't bother me. A big one on the obverse would be a turn off, but a small one hidden in the devices on the reverse wouldn't concern me nearly as much.

[EZ_E]

For me, unoriginal, "white gold" is a much bigger turn off unless the luster, grade and strike makes it look extraordinary.

 

I much prefer a thick skin to baking soda'd shiny.

 

[BillJones]

I find copper spots a big distraction. In fact, there is a high relief Saint in some monster grade (PF69 I think) that has a copper spot on the reverse. All I can ever think of when I see that coin is the copper spot and why hasn't it been dipped off.

 

For me, a copper spot is a deal breaker.

 

All I can ever think of when I see that coin is the copper spot and why hasn't it been dipped off.

 

The short answer to that is if the coin were to dipped, it would no longer have a chance of grading PR-69. That grade is reserved for coins that have virtually no marks, exhibit an exceptional strike, have great eye appeal and are 100% original.

 

I imagine that a copper spot on the reverse of High Relief $20 that got an PR-69 would be of no consequence the experienced collector.

[PerryHall]

Based on experience, dipping gold does not guarantee the removal of copper spots and, if copper spots are removed, there is no guarantee that they won't come back.

[BillJones]

 

Here is a picture of the 1843-D quarter eagle that I promised to post earlier. I had trouble getting this one right, and the coin is not as "white" in this picture as it is in person. The picture also emphasizes every mark on the coin. It looks better than this in person. It is now in a PCGS AU-55 holder.

 

I bought this piece 20 years ago when the slab industry was in its infancy. The coin was raw, and I "made" it later. I knew at the time that the coin had been cleaned white, and the dealer from whom I bought it (JJ Teaparty) freely admitted that to me.

 

So why did I buy it? Buying coins like this often involves compromises. Yes, 1843-D is one of the most common Dahlonega mint coins on the planet, but that does not make it an easy find. Most examples have had something done to them, and the coin was still tough to find in AU even 20 years ago. I got to own this coin for less than $1,500, which fit into my budget. The “perfect” one, if I could have found it would have run me as much as $1,000 more or perhaps double the price. For me it filled the “Dahlonega hole” in my collection from a historical perspective. So for that reason I bought it.

 

[Larry Dreher]

For what it's worth, It's very hard to sell gold pandas with copper spots. Even more rare dates sell for spot if spotted (pardon the pun)

[PerryHall]

For what it's worth, It's very hard to sell gold pandas with copper spots. Even more rare dates sell for spot if spotted (pardon the pun)

 

Aren't Pandas 9999 fine pure gold? If so, they shouldn't have copper spots.

[BillJones]

For what it's worth, It's very hard to sell gold pandas with copper spots. Even more rare dates sell for spot if spotted (pardon the pun)

 

Aren't Pandas 9999 fine pure gold? If so, they shouldn't have copper spots.

 

You are correct. Point 999 gold should never have copper spots.

 

BUT …

 

It would not be the first time that there was something in a Chinese import that was not supposed to be there.

[PerryHall]

For what it's worth, It's very hard to sell gold pandas with copper spots. Even more rare dates sell for spot if spotted (pardon the pun)

 

Aren't Pandas 9999 fine pure gold? If so, they shouldn't have copper spots.

 

You are correct. Point 999 gold should never have copper spots.

 

BUT …

 

It would not be the first time that there was something in a Chinese import that was not supposed to be there.

 

Maybe there was some lead in the mix?

 

 

[MrEureka-migration]

Does anyone here remember the Pittman 1847 Half Eagle?

[rbrown4]

Yes it has a carbon spot in the middle of Liberty's cheek, I do not know or recall what the last sale of the coin was but it was tremendous.

 

Rey

[MarkFeld]

On the subject of copper spots on gold coins - David Hall posted the answer below in a thread on the CU forum yesterday. I have seen many PCGS and NGC graded gold coins which did not appear to have been down-graded due to copper spots. So, his post is a bit confusing to me, unless it means that the grading "guidelines" for such coins are about to change.

 

Andy (Mr. Eureka),

 

we are about to announce policy guidelines for all spot issues...

 

milk spots on ASEs

 

copper spots on gold

 

White spots on 1950-1964 silver proofs

 

carbon spots on Lincolns and Indian cents

 

Basically, spots are an eye appeal negative and grading points should be deducted. Our official guidelines to this somewhat complex issue will be coming soon

 

Thanks,

 

David

[EZ_E]

Mark, guidelines to address these issues seem to be more than reasonable to me. Afterall, eye-appeal is a large part of the grading process to determine the overall grade. Also included is luster, wear, and strike. But, of course, I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

 

p.s. Can you pick out the total number of Mark Feld coins in my new sigline banner?

[gmarguli]

p.s. Can you pick out the total number of Mark Feld coins in my new sigline banner?

 

 

I'm going to guess that the is not one of them.

[EZ_E]

That is not MS70, Greg. I know the characteristics of MS70 and this is not it.

[BillJones]

If David Hall is going to start dumping on all the gold coins with copper spots, his company could be in BIG trouble.

 

A bit over a decade ago large numbers of expensive 1857-S double eagles that had been salvaged from the SS Central America and “curated” came on the market in fancy PCGS holders. At the time I noticed that some of these coins were beginning to “turn” with copper staining appearing at a rate fast enough to be of concern. Sure enough I’ve seen some Central America coins with extensive copper staining that has a significant upon the marketability and the price of these pieces.

 

If Mr. Hall is going to change his turn, he’s going to have some angry people to contend with if they know anything about PCGS guarantees. No matter what you do copper stains have a habit of coming back after they have been dipped off, and given that PCGS might have a problem on its hands.

 

[Houston Investor]

I avoid gold coins with copper spots.