Is NCS/NGC in the business of ATing coins?

[MikeInFL]

Or is this simply "conservation" followed by "market acceptable" results?

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=611542

 

You be the judge...Mike

 

[MarkFeld]

If I were "the judge" I would body-bag the coin for artificial color. I'd also make the submitter do community service and require that he teach his fellow collectors not to spend more money on "conservation" and grading than the coin is worth.

[gmarguli]

I'd also make the submitter do community service and require that he teach his fellow collectors not to spend more money on "conservation" and grading than the coin is worth.

 

I assume he paid under $35 for the conservation and grading of that coin. I believe that coin without color is worth about that. With that color, it's easily worth more. I'd guess worth 2X-3X that much if the color is accurate. He turned a $10 coin into possibly a $100 coin for a $35 investment. Seems like a wise business decision to me... not to mention removing harmful dirt and grime from the coins surface to preserve it for future generations.

[James_OldeTowne]

This is awfully reminiscent of the "blue Indians" - the ones that had lacquer removed to reveal colorful toning. Is this toning AT? I'd have to answer the question with a question: given that the coin needed protection by having the contaminants removed, is it "natural" for it to have ever been hazed up to begin with, and subsequently dipped to remove the haze?

 

Of course not. But what was done was done in the best interests of the coin.

[djdilliodon]

seems to me the color was already on it but was just buried under all that haze

[MarkFeld]

seems to me the color was already on it but was just buried under all that haze

I doubt it and believe it is far more likely that the (new) color is the result of a reaction to whatever was applied to the surfaces.

[coinman1794]

Yes, Mark, I concure and am very surprised NGC would allow that one through. This sounds exactly like the blue indian affair to me. I also think there are solvents that would stabilize the surfaces without causing this reaction, though they might not remove all the initial discoloration. Is the coin better off now that the surfaces are chemically changed? In my opinion, no.

[MikeInFL]

Or perhaps, in retrospect, their reaction (or lack thereof) to Greg's creations blue toned proof copper makes more sense...Mike

[JamminJ]

I'll bet most would love that coin had the before pictures not been displayed.

[bsshog40]

I agree with Mark here. I don't think the coin looks very good at all. Lincolns having a very nice toning would be more even, and this one just looks like it was AT'd. I would bet that whatever was used for the conservation caused this to turn like this. I've seen dip toned lincolns and this one will probaly actually continue and probably start looking worse than what it looks like now.

[MarkFeld]

I'll bet most would love that coin had the before pictures not been displayed.

The before pictures have nothing to do with how the after pictures looks - the color appears unnatural, period.

[JamminJ]

I'll bet most would love that coin had the before pictures not been displayed.

The before pictures have nothing to do with how the after pictures looks - the color appears unnatural, period.

 

You changed your tune! I recall seeing lots of lovely, original blue copper in your inventory a while back.

[MarkFeld]

I'll bet most would love that coin had the before pictures not been displayed.

The before pictures have nothing to do with how the after pictures looks - the color appears unnatural, period.

 

You changed your tune! I recall seeing lots of lovely, original blue copper in your inventory a while back.

You recall incorrectly. I never had "lots" that you could/would have seen in my inventory. And I have since learned more than I wanted to know on the subject of "blue copper".

 

Nice try at deflection, though.

[JamminJ]

I'll bet most would love that coin had the before pictures not been displayed.

The before pictures have nothing to do with how the after pictures looks - the color appears unnatural, period.

 

You changed your tune! I recall seeing lots of lovely, original blue copper in your inventory a while back.

You recall incorrectly. I never had "lots" that you could/would have seen in my inventory. And I have since learned more than I wanted to know on the subject of "blue copper".

 

Nice try at deflection, though.

 

Really? I recall you posting where you referred to blue IHCs as your bread and butter. In fact, your exact reply to Longacre's question "Do dealers have a "bread and butter" series that they know will always fly out the door?" was...

 

Wednesday August 03, 2005 8:55 AM

In my case, currently, the answer would be toned proof indian cents in the PR64-PR67 grade range and $300-$1500 price ranges.

 

coinguy1

Dealer

Posts: 11434

Joined: Aug 2002

 

Original thread

 

Also, it looks like you placed an even 10 in this thread

 

Here you offer an early proof lincoln with purple toning, wonder if it looked like the one in this thread.

 

Another four right here!

 

BTW, exactly what is your definition of "lots"?

 

However, I do agree you have since learned. (thumbs u

[ldhair]

The color of the coin is just wrong. Maybe it's just the image but I don't feel that's the case.

 

[MarkFeld]

I'll bet most would love that coin had the before pictures not been displayed.

The before pictures have nothing to do with how the after pictures looks - the color appears unnatural, period.

 

You changed your tune! I recall seeing lots of lovely, original blue copper in your inventory a while back.

You recall incorrectly. I never had "lots" that you could/would have seen in my inventory. And I have since learned more than I wanted to know on the subject of "blue copper".

 

Nice try at deflection, though.

 

Really? I recall you posting where you referred to blue IHCs as your bread and butter. In fact, your exact reply to Longacre's question "Do dealers have a "bread and butter" series that they know will always fly out the door?" was...

 

Wednesday August 03, 2005 8:55 AM

In my case, currently, the answer would be toned proof indian cents in the PR64-PR67 grade range and $300-$1500 price ranges.

 

coinguy1

Dealer

Posts: 11434

Joined: Aug 2002

 

Original thread

 

Also, it looks like you placed an even 10 in this thread

 

Here you offer an early proof lincoln with purple toning, wonder if it looked like the one in this thread.

 

Another four right here!

 

BTW, exactly what is your definition of "lots"?

 

However, I do agree you have since learned. (thumbs u

How many of those Indian Cents that you linked were, as you facetiously called them "lovely, original blue copper"? Did you even bother to read the descriptions? Or was it not necessary since you know their source(s)? But yes, among the many other non-"blue" ones I have handled over the years, I obviously sold a number of "blue" Proof Indian Cents. I think I bought about 15 from Greg, along with a Proof Two Cent Piece over a period of time before I found out what was going on. It was extremely embarrassing and upsetting to me and I offered full buy-backs to my clients after I became aware of the facts.

 

None of that has anything to do with your earlier comment in this thread, with which I took issue, however:

I'll bet most would love that coin had the before pictures not been displayed.

On the other hand I would probably have agreed with you if you'd said

I'll bet most would love that coin had we not had discussions about MS70 and its effect on copper

[IrishMike]

Geez o pete guys. On my monitor I can see the blue and purple in the before photo. This is an example of a picture that was shot with little knowledge of how to capture luster and color. I wouldn't proffer an opinion from such lousy photos. I have several copper coins that can almost look like the first image and properly imaged almost look like the 2nd coin. Pax vobiscum.

[MarkFeld]

Mike, thanks for your perspective - you have caused me to reconsider the possibility that the coin was purple before being conserved. In fairness to the person who originally imaged the coin, however, some coins don't lend themselves to accurate images, even by knowledgeable photographers.

[djdilliodon]

Geez o pete guys. On my monitor I can see the blue and purple in the before photo. This is an example of a picture that was shot with little knowledge of how to capture luster and color. I wouldn't proffer an opinion from such lousy photos. I have several copper coins that can almost look like the first image and properly imaged almost look like the 2nd coin. Pax vobiscum.

 

I agree. Like i stated earlier it appears the toning was under all the haze on the coin. I can also see traces of the colors under the haze.

[MarkFeld]

Geez o pete guys. On my monitor I can see the blue and purple in the before photo. This is an example of a picture that was shot with little knowledge of how to capture luster and color. I wouldn't proffer an opinion from such lousy photos. I have several copper coins that can almost look like the first image and properly imaged almost look like the 2nd coin. Pax vobiscum.

 

I agree. Like i stated earlier it appears the toning was under all the haze on the coin. I can also see traces of the colors under the haze.

It appears that I stand corrected.

[gmarguli]

How many of those Indian Cents that you linked were, as you facetiously called them "lovely, original blue copper"? Did you even bother to read the descriptions? Or was it not necessary since you know their source(s)?

 

I'm not going to answer for James, but on multiple occasions I have referred to this thread as the "thread of hypocrites". The coins in it came from me and you'll notice multiple hypocrites praising the coins only later to damn them.

 

Hypocrite sampling:

 

Hypocrite #1: all are superb

 

a lucky new owner all in one "feld" swoop

 

smart man to deal with you mark

 

i will not ask the prices as then i will really be depressed

 

and then he came back to offer more hypocritical praise: mark those coins where fantastic that client of yours was extremely lucky and got a great deal

 

a few of the coins where amazing killers

 

 

Hypocrite #2: Nice coins Mark

 

 

I think I bought about 15 from Greg, along with a Proof Two Cent Piece over a period of time before I found out what was going on.

 

I should have kept that . Stunningly beautiful. Have you been following its appearances at auction? It keeps getting sold for more and more money. At last I saw, it's up about 50% over the price you bought it at over a very short period of time. Damn lucky clients of yours!

 

 

It was extremely embarrassing and upsetting to me and I offered full buy-backs to my clients after I became aware of the facts.

 

One day I'll tell you a story of one of these clients who was fully aware of the blue copper BEFORE you sold any to him. And he even purchased more of it after the forum posts knowing full well where this coin came from. It still doesn't stop him from whining in the forums like a hurt little boy, but it is funny for those of us who know the truth.

[JamminJ]

How many of those Indian Cents that you linked were, as you facetiously called them "lovely, original blue copper"? Did you even bother to read the descriptions? Or was it not necessary since you know their source(s)? But yes, among the many other non-"blue" ones I have handled over the years, I obviously sold a number of "blue" Proof Indian Cents. I think I bought about 15 from Greg, along with a Proof Two Cent Piece over a period of time before I found out what was going on. It was extremely embarrassing and upsetting to me and I offered full buy-backs to my clients after I became aware of the facts.

 

Geez Mark, if you think only Greg's blue Indians were doctored you really need to get out more. Admitting being deceived on your bread and butter product is never fun.

 

While they were going strong I thought you were in on the deals - how could any observant person of reasonable intelligence think those were natural? There were just so damn many of them coming to market at the same time, all looking alike. Another clue might have been how few brown Indians were actually brown and how their prices crept up. Finally, anyone that handled raw coins regularly knew what MS70 can do to copper, multiple dealers warned me about blue/purple upon my mention of cleaning up slimy copper. Imagine my surprise to learn you, a seasoned pro, really didn’t know!

 

Even better than the ones you moved personally was the influence on all the other buyers out there once you and other high powered dealers gave wild blue Indians you're (rhetorical back then) "sticker of approval". Astonishingly, foolish people believe what coin dealers say and buy accordingly. I don't know whether malice or naivety buried more people in blue indians. However, I do know which takes a preachy attitude.

 

Nice try at deflection, though.

 

BTW, the PF67BN* two center was truly spectacular. It will be a long time before anyone makes another that looks like that one!

 

 

[MarkFeld]

How many of those Indian Cents that you linked were, as you facetiously called them "lovely, original blue copper"? Did you even bother to read the descriptions? Or was it not necessary since you know their source(s)? But yes, among the many other non-"blue" ones I have handled over the years, I obviously sold a number of "blue" Proof Indian Cents. I think I bought about 15 from Greg, along with a Proof Two Cent Piece over a period of time before I found out what was going on. It was extremely embarrassing and upsetting to me and I offered full buy-backs to my clients after I became aware of the facts.

 

Geez Mark, if you think only Greg's blue Indians were doctored you really need to get out more. Admitting being deceived on your bread and butter product is never fun.

 

While they were going strong I thought you were in on the deals - how could any observant person of reasonable intelligence think those were natural? There were just so damn many of them coming to market at the same time, all looking alike. Another clue might have been how few brown Indians were actually brown and how their prices crept up. Finally, anyone that handled raw coins regularly knew what MS70 can do to copper, multiple dealers warned me about blue/purple upon my mention of cleaning up slimy copper. Imagine my surprise to learn you, a seasoned pro, really didn’t know!

 

 

 

Even better than the ones you moved personally was the influence on all the other buyers out there once you and other high powered dealers gave wild blue Indians you're (rhetorical back then) "sticker of approval". Astonishingly, foolish people believe what coin dealers say and buy accordingly. I don't know whether malice or naivety buried more people in blue indians. However, I do know which takes a preachy attitude.

 

Nice try at deflection, though.

 

BTW, the PF67BN* two center was truly spectacular. It will be a long time before anyone makes another that looks like that one!

 

I never believed or said that "only Greg's blue Indians were doctored". In fact, at that time, I was told by someone whose word I didn't doubt, that many others were doctoring copper too. It just so happened that I had acquired very few such pieces other than from Greg.

 

And whether intentional or not, (I suspect the former), your focusing on a one time comment of mine about "bread and butter product" which occurred about two years ago, pertaining to a very short lived situation, is a gross distortion. Proof copper of any color is and almost always has been a very small part of the coins I handle, and you likely know that without being told. Lastly, you almost certainly also knew enough to know I wasn't "in on the deals". It's too bad you're not nearly as forthright as Greg - you could probably impart a lot of knowledge to the forum if you cared to.

 

Edited to add:

 

Please feel free to post links to all of my other old BST offerings. That way everyone can see if those Indian cents were my "bread and butter product" for more than one or two listings or not, whether I "was in on the deals" or not and how significant or insignificant a part of my inventory those coins were over a long period of time. I already know what your doing so would show and I'd bet that you do too.

[SFDukie-migration]

Information is a powerful tool. Funny to me that some in the coin business get upset at those who let collectors know what goes on -and act as though we are supposed to be greatful when they keep us in the dark.

 

 

 

Mark Feld is well respected, and for good reason. I'm not aware of any collectors who feel he has knowingly hidden any relevant information about a coin he's sold.

That isn't true of some of his critics.

Don

[chinook]

I should have kept that . Stunningly beautiful. Have you been following its appearances at auction? It keeps getting sold for more and more money. At last I saw, it's up about 50% over the price you bought it at over a very short period of time. Damn lucky clients of yours!

 

 

 

The original purchaser lost money.

 

 

 

I am about 99% sure the coin in the OP has been cleaned with MS70 and most times NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS will encapsulate.

[gmarguli]

I should have kept that . Stunningly beautiful. Have you been following its appearances at auction? It keeps getting sold for more and more money. At last I saw, it's up about 50% over the price you bought it at over a very short period of time. Damn lucky clients of yours!

 

 

The original purchaser lost money.

 

The original buyer must be a total to lose money on that coin. They should switch to Beanie Babies instead of coins.

 

Besides, I thought Mark told me he sold the coin to Pinnacle?

[Connecticoin]

The key question here is what did NCS use on the 41 proof Lincoln? Are they using MS70?

 

FWIW, I am not 100% convinced that MS70 imparts any color on proof copper, and I stated that in the infamous PCGS thread. I think it is possible (but am not 100% convinced here as well) that all MS70 does is strip grime and reveal color that is already there, especially given that such color is almost indistingushable from color on proof copper that is considered NT.

[djdilliodon]

The key question here is what did NCS use on the 41 proof Lincoln? Are they using MS70?

 

FWIW, I am not 100% convinced that MS70 imparts any color on proof copper, and I stated that in the infamous PCGS thread. I think it is possible (but am not 100% convinced here as well) that all MS70 does is strip grime and reveal color that is already there, especially given that such color is almost indistingushable from color on proof copper that is considered NT.

 

Copper is one of the most reactive metals on the planet. If you dip copper cents in acetone (leave it in to long), ms70, Ezest dip or even leave it on a towel or cloth that has a slight trace of chemicals or any remains of a dip solution it will change color. I once experimented with lincoln proofs to see what the best way was to restore them and every single method i used would change them into crazy colors. Maybe if you stabilize them in some way after they will not tone but so far all of them have changed color on me. They will look nice right after but just give them a few days or it will be instant (after a little time).

[chinook]

I should have kept that . Stunningly beautiful. Have you been following its appearances at auction? It keeps getting sold for more and more money. At last I saw, it's up about 50% over the price you bought it at over a very short period of time. Damn lucky clients of yours!

 

 

The original purchaser lost money.

 

The original buyer must be a total to lose money on that coin. They should switch to Beanie Babies instead of coins.

 

Besides, I thought Mark told me he sold the coin to Pinnacle?

 

 

Ah, the power of information. Sucks when you dont have it, eh?

[MAULEMALL]

I should have kept that . Stunningly beautiful. Have you been following its appearances at auction? It keeps getting sold for more and more money. At last I saw, it's up about 50% over the price you bought it at over a very short period of time. Damn lucky clients of yours!

 

 

The original purchaser lost money.

 

The original buyer must be a total to lose money on that coin. They should switch to Beanie Babies instead of coins.

 

Besides, I thought Mark told me he sold the coin to Pinnacle?

 

 

Ah, the power of information. Sucks when you dont have it, eh?

I think the only ones without ALL the info is us...

 

I personally would love to know the whole story ,, (thumbs u