First Strike is out...

[Keleum]

I hadn't seen NGC's new web look, and the notice about turn-around times is quite prominent. I also saw this link about a first strike class action suit.

 

NGC Settles First Strike Class action suit

 

 

[gmarguli]

NGC mailed this out several weeks ago. It'll be interesting to see what PCGS does. Didn't ICG & ANACS also do the First Strike garbage?

 

Personally, I was hoping that the outcome would be whore Thomas Francisco & the whore lawyers were set on fire and everyone who specifically paid extra for a First Strike coin was sterilized. Oh well, in a perfect world...

[Keleum]

I figured it was old news but I hadn't seen talked about here. Is PCGS in another suit? I would think they have to fight it, as they continue using the First Strike (My order is bigger than yours) designation.

 

How did this stuff even get started? It seems to be begging for a slew of lawsuits, and an investigation by the treasury dept.

[gmarguli]

I read on the forums that PCGS was sued shortly after NGC by the same person for the same thing. An ex-forum member - who might be completely crazy - stated that PCGS had settled and one condition was that they continue to use First Strike for the remainder of this year. I have no idea if that is true.

 

If they are being sued, PCGS may want to fight it. It is very possible that the NGC decision to settle was made mainly by their insurance company who is paying the tab? At least, I assume that NGC's insurance is covering the settlement. PCGS's insurance company might feel differently.

 

[DC Dawg]

I have retyped my response several times because they have all digressed into an uncensored commentary of the legal system as it is mishandled in Florida, regardless of whether it is in state or federal courts.

 

No, I do not agree with the "First Strike" designation because of the interpretation pursued by NGC (sorry guys) and the other grading services. As a consumer, it should be the his responsibility to educate himself on the meaning of the designation. If Thomas Francisco was not explained the interpretation by a dealer who sold him the coin, then let him take it up with the dealer. Caveat emptor. Instead Thomas Francisco does not own up to his personal responsibility and obstructs the court's ability to consider more serious matters by disparaging NGC because they are the ones with the "deeper pockets."

 

The premise of Francisco's suit is capricious and without merit. He does not deserve the $7500 offered and his attorneys can swing by their from the rafters before being compensated for wasting the court's time with an action that can only be described as frivolous.

 

Unfortunately, there is no precedence for the judge to deny the settlement. So the lawyers get paid and live to sue another day. What a system!

 

Scott

[MorganMan]

Ok, you guys can flame me, but my opinion is that if BOTH TPG's had used INTEGRITY in their decision to encase coins with these labels, they never would have, hence, would have been exposed to no lawsuits whatsoever about them.

 

 

MM

[Keleum]

Scott, its only money. It's not like they had to give up a hoard of Saints or filled in 7070 albums..

 

The link says the 90K is supposed to go to charity, which makes me think, they hardly made money on this, even if they do get half.

 

Anyways, I think NGC did the honorable thing, settling the case , notifying their customers, and more importantly doing away with the designation

 

[MikeKing]

Does this mean I should go out and buy up as many first strikes as I can and double my money?

[Stanley]

Does this mean I should go out and buy up as many first strikes as I can and double my money?

No Mike ...it means you should have already done that

[Revenant]

I have 1 "first strike" and 3 "Early Release" coins in my M69 SAE set becuase in all cases they were the best price available at the time.

[rrantique]

NGC mailed this out several weeks ago. It'll be interesting to see what PCGS does. Didn't ICG & ANACS also do the First Strike garbage?

 

Personally, I was hoping that the outcome would be whore Thomas Francisco & the whore lawyers were set on fire and everyone who specifically paid extra for a First Strike coin was sterilized. Oh well, in a perfect world...

 

Say what you really mean Greg.

[Conder101]

The link says the 90K is supposed to go to charity, which makes me think, they hardly made money on this, even if they do get half.

You mis-read the link.

 

It says that NGC made $90,000. It directs as settlement that NGC pay $650,000 in damages with one third going to the plaintiffs lawyers, $7,500 to the plaintiff, if they spend more than $25,000 in notifying the class members then the excess comes from the settlement. The remaining balance goes to the ANA.

 

Didn't ICG & ANACS also do the First Strike garbage?

Yes, but I don't think he filed suit against them. They came late and stopped when he filed against the big boys. It would be hard to argue that they really damaged people.

 

Anyways, I think NGC did the honorable thing, settling the case , notifying their customers, and more importantly doing away with the designation

Settling was cheaper than fighting it, they had to notify them it's part of the settlement, they got rid of the designation because it was the source of the trouble. If it hadn't been for the suit they'd still be using it.

 

 

[xJack]

 

 

The whole situation stinks - from the First Strike Label, to the lawsuit, to the settlement.

 

I don't agree NGC, or _anyone_ should be able to use First Strike - other than the US Mint. Even they can't be trusted not to exploit it and market it to the Nth degee.

 

This guy gets paid $7,500 because he overpaid for product that some scuzzbucket snookered him into? Shenanegans - I didn't sue my stock broker when I lost my tail on tech stocks a few years ago. Just another example of the unhappy investor looking to get some payback using the legal system. If you can't stand the heat...

 

NGC made $90,000 on First Strike labels, yet they have to pay out $650,000 in damages? Ummmm, isn't the damage estimate based on actual class member claims? It doesn't seem like hundreds, or thousands of folks lined up to be a member of this class - smoke and mirrors in the damages department if you ask me. NGC was the enabler for unscrupulous marketing, but that only makes them a source for the list of people who holdered the most first strike coins - it's those rats who should be sued.

 

This brilliant individual got himself $7,500 and allowed his attorney to be paid $200,000?!? Yet another wise move by this investment genius.

 

Sorry, just had to vent. The whole situation is another black mark on the industry and another reason collectors _will_ exit this fine hobby, never to return.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

 

 

The whole situation stinks - from the First Strike Label, to the lawsuit, to the settlement.

 

I don't agree NGC, or _anyone_ should be able to use First Strike - other than the US Mint. Even they can't be trusted not to exploit it and market it to the Nth degee.

 

This guy gets paid $7,500 because he overpaid for product that some scuzzbucket snookered him into? Shenanegans - I didn't sue my stock broker when I lost my tail on tech stocks a few years ago. Just another example of the unhappy investor looking to get some payback using the legal system. If you can't stand the heat...

 

NGC made $90,000 on First Strike labels, yet they have to pay out $650,000 in damages? Ummmm, isn't the damage estimate based on actual class member claims? It doesn't seem like hundreds, or thousands of folks lined up to be a member of this class - smoke and mirrors in the damages department if you ask me. NGC was the enabler for unscrupulous marketing, but that only makes them a source for the list of people who holdered the most first strike coins - it's those rats who should be sued.

 

This brilliant individual got himself $7,500 and allowed his attorney to be paid $200,000?!? Yet another wise move by this investment genius.

 

Sorry, just had to vent. The whole situation is another black mark on the industry and another reason collectors _will_ exit this fine hobby, never to return.

 

I'm unclear from your post why you feel that "collectors _will_ exit this fine hobby, never to return". Also, you seem to be placing portions of the blame on all of the following parties - the grading companies, the submitters of the coins, the U.S. Mint, the sellers and even the buyer(s). Is everyone really to blame?

 

Finally, the analogy of an investor buying and losing money on a "first strike" coin to someone buying and losing money on a tech stock doesn't appear to be a valid one....unless the buyer of the tech stock could show that he paid too much for it because the name of the stock/company mimicked the name of another company and was therefore misleading.

[Conder101]

This guy gets paid $7,500 because he overpaid for product that some scuzzbucket snookered him into?

I'm not sure if there was ever any claim that he got snookered on one. It could just be a case of he saw an "injustice", bought one so he would have grounds to bring the suit, and then filed.

 

NGC made $90,000 on First Strike labels, yet they have to pay out $650,000 in damages? Ummmm, isn't the damage estimate based on actual class member claims? It doesn't seem like hundreds, or thousands of folks lined up to be a member of this class - smoke and mirrors in the damages department if you ask me.

This wasn't a court ordered settlement, it was a settlement worked out between the parties to make the case go away. They can work out any damage estimate they want. Sure if the case had continued through trial and the court set the settlement based on the actual proven damages it would probably have been lower, but it could have cost more in litigation to fight it than this higher settlement cost was.

 

This brilliant individual got himself $7,500 and allowed his attorney to be paid $200,000?!? Yet another wise move by this investment genius.

Doesn't seem like a bad return to me. His cost is $0, he does very little to nothing while his lawyers do the work, he gets $7,500 His return on investment is wonderful. Sure the lawyers got a bundle more than he did, but they had to work for it and had expenses that come out of it, and they had the risk that if there wasn't a settlement or they lost the case they would have to write off all of their costs for a big loss. Their return on investment was much smaller. Potentially even negative. They may have still taken a loss.

[BillJones]

"First Strike is out."

 

That would be great news.

 

If ever there was a promotion that was a load of *spoon* that was it.

 

"First Strike" - concept for very gullible people.

[MorganMan]

Anyways, I think NGC did the honorable thing, settling the case , notifying their customers, and more importantly doing away with the designation

 

Yep, then they turn right around and start this "Early Release" stuff.

 

Real honorable....

 

 

MM

[Zoins]

Anyways, I think NGC did the honorable thing, settling the case , notifying their customers, and more importantly doing away with the designation

Yep, then they turn right around and start this "Early Release" stuff.

 

Real honorable....

Early Release made it on the US Mint consumer awareness hot topics page very fast. Apparently some people may have been pitching these coins as released earlier than the official US Mint release date.

[Stanley]

I never fretted myself over the First Strike designation.

And as far as the Early Release, I do not think anyone will challenge that one.

 

[xJack]

I'm unclear from your post why you feel that "collectors _will_ exit this fine hobby, never to return". Also, you seem to be placing portions of the blame on all of the following parties - the grading companies, the submitters of the coins, the U.S. Mint, the sellers and even the buyer(s). Is everyone really to blame?

 

Finally, the analogy of an investor buying and losing money on a "first strike" coin to someone buying and losing money on a tech stock doesn't appear to be a valid one....unless the buyer of the tech stock could show that he paid too much for it because the name of the stock/company mimicked the name of another company and was therefore misleading.

 

I should clarify some points Mark, thanks for the followup question.

 

I don't blame the buyers, I don't blame the small QTY submitters, I don't blame the US Mint. The brunt of the blame goes to the TPGs for developing a designation that isn't 100% guaranteed to be factual. Further, to the marketers for promoting first strikes as "Rare and Limited". The label may be limited, but First Strikes happen every time a tool change takes place at the U.S. Mint.

 

The U.S. Mint is the only organization that could without reasonable doubt designate first strike - since they would be able to remove the first xxx number of coins from a machine after changing tools. I was trying to express my lack of trust in their marketing agencies as well - they're not infallable either.

 

The grading companies are at fault because they knowingly executed a First Strike program, even after the U.S. Mint acknowledged that the package ship date was not an indication of strike date. I wish I could find the CW article that indicated this, it was probably the seed for Francisco's suit.

 

What if the U.S. Mint utilizes a FILO warehousing system? Then all those hefty premiums were actually paid for Last Strike coins. This is a big portion of the blame - labeling a coin First Strike without knowing for sure that it was the first off the line is a pretty big stretch.

 

As for the hefty premiums, the markup on a First Strike coin from a retailer tends to be dramtically higher than a non First Strike. Obviously there's a supply and demand issue here, and the markup is "justified"; I use quotes there because if numismatics were a different industry that simply resold manufactured product for 10-times markup, the FTC might have something to say. This is where blame is on the retailers and mass marketers.

 

Yes, it's pure Capitalism and I love and respect it - but people get ticked when Sony Playstations sell for $3,000 and Elmo toys for $500. I'm just that guy who's ticked about First Strike.

 

As for collectors exiting the hobby - there are _many_ new collectors that have entered this market recently who rely on the grading services to protect them from over grading, trap coins, etc.

 

From my perspective - the First Strike program allows those collectors to believe that they got one of the first coins struck. But the date factor doesn't work - plain and simple. The last coins to be made in a production run might come from brand new dies - but since they're later by date, they don't qualify, even though they are First Strikes.

 

This is not a new debate, and I'm certainly not bringing up anything that wasn't stated a few years ago - but if the industry changes and the prevailing perspective changes to: "First Strikes happen _every day_ at the U.S. Mint" Then the premium on these labels will disappear along with the trust of those new collectors who put their faith in the opinion and reputation of the TPGs.

 

 

Flame away, I can take it.

 

 

Also, you make a good point about the tech stock thing - I stand corrected. That's a statement more suitable for a discussion over new TPGs named PGCS, NCG, AMACS, IGC, etc...

 

 

 

[bsshog40]

Maybe this will make to two Bison "First Stike" nickels go up in value!

[SkyMan]

I agree with MM.

[MarkFeld]

I'm unclear from your post why you feel that "collectors _will_ exit this fine hobby, never to return". Also, you seem to be placing portions of the blame on all of the following parties - the grading companies, the submitters of the coins, the U.S. Mint, the sellers and even the buyer(s). Is everyone really to blame?

 

Finally, the analogy of an investor buying and losing money on a "first strike" coin to someone buying and losing money on a tech stock doesn't appear to be a valid one....unless the buyer of the tech stock could show that he paid too much for it because the name of the stock/company mimicked the name of another company and was therefore misleading.

 

I should clarify some points Mark, thanks for the followup question.

 

I don't blame the buyers, I don't blame the small QTY submitters, I don't blame the US Mint. The brunt of the blame goes to the TPGs for developing a designation that isn't 100% guaranteed to be factual. Further, to the marketers for promoting first strikes as "Rare and Limited". The label may be limited, but First Strikes happen every time a tool change takes place at the U.S. Mint.

 

The U.S. Mint is the only organization that could without reasonable doubt designate first strike - since they would be able to remove the first xxx number of coins from a machine after changing tools. I was trying to express my lack of trust in their marketing agencies as well - they're not infallable either.

 

The grading companies are at fault because they knowingly executed a First Strike program, even after the U.S. Mint acknowledged that the package ship date was not an indication of strike date. I wish I could find the CW article that indicated this, it was probably the seed for Francisco's suit.

 

What if the U.S. Mint utilizes a FILO warehousing system? Then all those hefty premiums were actually paid for Last Strike coins. This is a big portion of the blame - labeling a coin First Strike without knowing for sure that it was the first off the line is a pretty big stretch.

 

As for the hefty premiums, the markup on a First Strike coin from a retailer tends to be dramtically higher than a non First Strike. Obviously there's a supply and demand issue here, and the markup is "justified"; I use quotes there because if numismatics were a different industry that simply resold manufactured product for 10-times markup, the FTC might have something to say. This is where blame is on the retailers and mass marketers.

 

Yes, it's pure Capitalism and I love and respect it - but people get ticked when Sony Playstations sell for $3,000 and Elmo toys for $500. I'm just that guy who's ticked about First Strike.

 

As for collectors exiting the hobby - there are _many_ new collectors that have entered this market recently who rely on the grading services to protect them from over grading, trap coins, etc.

 

From my perspective - the First Strike program allows those collectors to believe that they got one of the first coins struck. But the date factor doesn't work - plain and simple. The last coins to be made in a production run might come from brand new dies - but since they're later by date, they don't qualify, even though they are First Strikes.

 

This is not a new debate, and I'm certainly not bringing up anything that wasn't stated a few years ago - but if the industry changes and the prevailing perspective changes to: "First Strikes happen _every day_ at the U.S. Mint" Then the premium on these labels will disappear along with the trust of those new collectors who put their faith in the opinion and reputation of the TPGs.

 

 

Flame away, I can take it.

 

 

Also, you make a good point about the tech stock thing - I stand corrected. That's a statement more suitable for a discussion over new TPGs named PGCS, NCG, AMACS, IGC, etc...

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. It turns out that we are much closer in our views on the subject than I had thought from your initial post.

[xJack]

You're just saying that so you don't have to read another long-winded post!

[MarkFeld]

You're just saying that so you don't have to read another long-winded post!

Don't be silly - your last one was so long I didn't think that even agreeing with you would spare us another lengthy one.

[MikeInFL]

"First Strike" is misleading at best and fraudulent at worst, in my opinion, and it is nice to hear the courts starting to agree...Mike

[Newmismatist]

"First Strike" is misleading at best and fraudulent at worst, in my opinion, and it is nice to hear the courts starting to agree...Mike

 

The "Courts" didn't agree with anything - the parties settled the case on terms that they agreed to - All the court does is dismiss the case after the settlement is consummated

[Revenant]

The issue has been settled (literally) so why continue to cabitz about it. It's over, "First Strike" is dead.

[DC Dawg]

The issue has been settled (literally) so why continue to cabitz about it. It's over, "First Strike" is dead.

Because this is "chat" board. Kibbitzing is what we do here!!

 

Scott

[JamminJ]

The issue has been settled (literally) so why continue to cabitz about it. It's over, "First Strike" is dead.

Because this is "chat" board. Kibbitzing is what we do here!!

 

Scott

 

That's a really good answer to the question. (thumbs u