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Why Does NGC Say This Morgan $ Has "Altered Surface"? (Pics)

Started by dluders-migration,

27 posts in this topic

dluders-migration

dluders-migration

Posted
Posted

I just completed my first submission of 5 ea. coins to NGC. Four came back encapsulated, but one (an 1885 Morgan Dollar) came back in a "body bag." The small check-off form in NGC's vinyl flip indicated an "Altered Surface," but did not elaborate.

 

From the pictures below, you can see that the fields are a bit "grainy" but this is not uncommon for an 1885 Morgan. What exactly do you think is "altered" about the coin? Note that NGC didn't say that the coin was "cleaned". NGC didn't even grade the coin (even though they gave me an NGC bar-code paper that says "1885 S$1 ALTERED SURFACE" -- this would have been in the slab had they encapsulated it). What grade would you give it?

 

I paid NGC to grade & encapsulate the coin. They didn't want to encapsulate it, and they didn't even grade it. Why not? I know that an 1885 Morgan is a common date, but I'm trying to learn from this experience. Any thoughts?

 

 

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robec1347

robec1347

Posted
Posted
I just completed my first submission of 5 ea. coins to NGC. Four came back encapsulated, but one (an 1885 Morgan Dollar) came back in a "body bag." The small check-off form in NGC's vinyl flip indicated an "Altered Surface," but did not elaborate.

 

From the pictures below, you can see that the fields are a bit "grainy" but this is not uncommon for an 1885 Morgan. What exactly do you think is "altered" about the coin? Note that NGC didn't say that the coin was "cleaned". NGC didn't even grade the coin (even though they gave me an NGC bar-code paper that says "1885 S$1 ALTERED SURFACE" -- this would have been in the slab had they encapsulated it). What grade would you give it?

 

I paid NGC to grade & encapsulate the coin. They didn't want to encapsulate it, and they didn't even grade it. Why not? I know that an 1885 Morgan is a common date, but I'm trying to learn from this experience. Any thoughts?

 

 

 

Probably the best thing to do would be to get a Photobucket account and have them host the images. It is free and easy. www.photobucket.com

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TomB

TomB

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Posted

To embed images within your post it is easiest if you have the image already hosted online either through your own website or through an image hosting service such as PhotoBucket. You would then copy the URL of the image and drop the information within brackets as below-

 

(img)http://URL of image here(/img)

 

Please note that I used (...) instead of square brackets [...] as an illustration.

 

As for the Morgan, it is not all that unusual to find these coins with evidence of thumbing on the cheek in an effort to diminish the appearance of hairlines. This might be termed an altered surface by the TPG. If you can get the images to work properly we might be able to have a slightly better idea.

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rbrown4

rbrown4

Posted
Posted
I just completed my first submission of 5 ea. coins to NGC. Four came back encapsulated, but one (an 1885 Morgan Dollar) came back in a "body bag." The small check-off form in NGC's vinyl flip indicated an "Altered Surface," but did not elaborate.

 

From the pictures below, you can see that the fields are a bit "grainy" but this is not uncommon for an 1885 Morgan. What exactly do you think is "altered" about the coin? Note that NGC didn't say that the coin was "cleaned". NGC didn't even grade the coin (even though they gave me an NGC bar-code paper that says "1885 S$1 ALTERED SURFACE" -- this would have been in the slab had they encapsulated it). What grade would you give it?

 

I paid NGC to grade & encapsulate the coin. They didn't want to encapsulate it, and they didn't even grade it. Why not? I know that an 1885 Morgan is a common date, but I'm trying to learn from this experience. Any thoughts?

 

 

 

First of all welcome to the forums here. Regarding the concern that NGC did not encapsulate it or grade it, they have a standard policy to not grade and/or encapuslte what they call No Grade coins. This would include coins that have been cleaned, alterered, artificially colored, damaged, etc. They explain this on their website and literature as well as submission forms.

 

This is the practice of both NGC and PCGS. ANACS on the other hand another TPG will encapsulate a problem coin and assign it a grade based on details. But the slab will say 1885 Morgan, Altered Surface MS 60 Details or something to that effect.

 

Believe me, myself and many others on here have experienced this same situation. I thought I knew what a cleaned coin should look like until I started submitting to NGC for grading. It is a tremendous learning experience that will never end in my opinion. Do not feel bad, just good information for future references.

 

If I have a coin that has been not graded by NGC now and I want it encapsulated, like with Gold, I send it to ANACS. I also send them those coins that I suspect off the bat have been cleaned, but only if I want the encapsulated for a reason.

 

I am confident that at least one if not more members will be able to help explain why NGC did what they did. But again, do not get discouraged or upset at NGC, that is their policy and we all benefit from it.

 

Rey

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dluders-migration

dluders-migration

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Well, I understand that what I got was "standard practice" by NGC and PCGS. However, if they're both supposed to be "the best," would it strain them to EXPLAIN WHY they rejected the coin? You know, HELP the COIN COLLECTOR who is their bread-and-butter, and who funds their salary?

 

What I was hoping for was something like this (you know, CUSTOMER SERVICE):

 

"Altered Surface" -- Coin has been whizzed.

"Altered Surface" -- Coin has fingerprints on it.

"Altered Surface" -- Coin has been "thumbed."

 

 

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bsshog40

bsshog40

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Have you looked real close to see if maybe someone has attempted to do any engraving on it? The only reason I ask is that the Obv has some pretty good hits here and there and a couple on the Rev, but the eagles head and some of the hair seem to have sooo much detail. I haven't seen alot of engraving on coins done, so I may be way off base here.

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robec1347

robec1347

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I would have been just as surprise as you must have been in receiving this coin in a body bag. From the images I don't see much wrong with it. But as we have all seen, pictures can be deceiving in not showing all the characteristics the coin has to offer. It could also be the case of getting the graders on a bad day. Any other day it could very easily have graded MS 65 or higher. :grin:

 

BTW welcome to the forum. (thumbs u

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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It's possible that what appears as a light/white film or haze in the fields and on the devices over both sides of the coin is a substance which was applied in order to hide flaws. That's my best guess based upon the images and without being able to see the coin in hand.

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dluders-migration

dluders-migration

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The quality of the uploaded pictures is bad compared to the digital images I started with. I appreciate everyone's feedback about this coin. I'll just bring it down to the local coin dealer, and he'll say WHY the coin "won't grade." Although he doesn't like my stuff, he DOES tell me what's wrong with it. I'm learning from my mistakes.

 

 

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TomB

TomB

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Given the images provided, I see no obvious reason why this coin was bagged. However, I can only examine the images and not see the coin in-hand.

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

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dluders

 

There may be no definite reason we as a forum would be able to arrive at, but think of it this way. Put yourself in the graders shoes for a moment or two.

 

You sit there all day and look at coin after coin, Morgan after Morgan and you come across one that just looks different than the other 100 you just examined that day...a coin with altered surfaces sticks out like a sore thumb as opposed to ones with original surfaces.

 

What you thought all along was a MS-65, might never have been! Somewhere along the line the Morgan may have been enhanced for eye appeal and eye appeal only. At one time, "Blast White" was what collectors assumed was the best of the best....come find to out this is not the case.

 

A learning curve is presented to all of us...sometimes we find the answers and sometimes we don't.

 

Do not get discouraged by this, and welcome to the forum.

 

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IrishMike

IrishMike

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I don't know if the intention was to strip this coin to clean it up or it was just stored in a plastic flip over time or in an environment that caused a residue to build up. I did a photoshop on your coin and you can see the residue in the form of a haze which can be caused by all of the above. If you want to get it slabbed it needs an acetone bath or have NCS remove it. If you tilt it in proper lighting it should be very apparent.

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Conder101

Conder101

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It looks like there is a hazing on the coin especially around the eagle. I'm wondering if that could possibly be the result of slight PVC damage.

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Keleum

Keleum

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If he were to use acetone on it, rinse it off and pat it dry. Would that remove the altered surface you guys are mentioning? Or is it deeper than that.

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TomB

TomB

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If he were to use acetone on it, rinse it off and pat it dry.

If one uses acetone on a coin there is no need to pat the coin dry as long as there was a satisfactory final rinse in clean acetone. The reason for a satisfactory final rinse in clean acetone is to be certain that any dissolved contaminants have been removed and are not carried over into the final acetone wash and the reason you would not need to pat dry is that pure acetone will evaporate astonishingly quickly off the surface of a coin.

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Conder101

Conder101

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If it is what I mentioned then it is deeper. I said PVC damage, not PVC residue or contamination. I think the surface of the coin has been lightly etched.and if so it is forever.

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

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Examine the contact rim surfaces carefully under magnification, especially on the reverse above the eagles head and make sure metal has not been removed or moved to soften or remove a raised ding or a dent.

 

If someone along the line did so, this would be cause for an automatic rejection under the category "altered surfaces"

 

(filed rims)

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