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If you see a counterfeit coin listed on Ebay, please try the polite approach...

Started by MarkFeld,

35 posts in this topic

MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

As most everyone knows, there are numerous counterfeit coins listed for sale on Ebay. Sometimes the sellers are fully aware of it, but often, they are not. When I contact a seller about a counterfeit coin I generally give him/her the benefit of the doubt and am polite in my correspondences. However, I know from things they have told me, that they also receive some extremely rude and threatening messages from people who automatically assume that the sellers are scammers.

 

Tonight, I was in touch with the seller of a counterfeit 1889-CC Morgan dollar. I informed him that I was a former NGC grader, that the item was unquestionably counterfeit and that it would be better for his fine reputation if he pulled the listing. He wrote back, asking how I knew the coin was a counterfeit, so I relayed a few pointers. I then received the message below, which sadly illustrates my point about how some of these sellers are treated:

 

"HELLO, THANK YOU SO MUCH.....I JUST GOT LIKE 8 EMAILS OF PEOPLE SWEARING AND person_without_enough_empathyING, I DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT COINS, I WANT TO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ACTUALLY EXPLAINING IT TO ME!! EVERYBODY SAYS THEY ARE GOING TO REPORT ME, WOW!!!! I AM TAKING IT OFF RIGHT NOW! THANKS AGAIN"

 

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Doogy

Doogy

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great job, Mark!

 

 

I gotta' admit, i'm the kind that looks at feedback and other coins/stuff being sold. if i see a pattern of counterfeits being shoved down people's throats with "grades" assigned to them, i usually ask them to take the listing down, and i report it to ebay. if they seem to be some sort of antiques person, and doesn't really have much in the way of coins on auctions or feedback, i try the approach you presented. nice job on that one Mark!

 

 

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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Mark, I'm curious to know what the "pointers" were that led you to determine that it is a counterfeit. I'm not questioning your expertise, but I would like to know if I am seeing the same things: 1) the denticles on the obverse don't look right, particularly between 3 & 5 o'clock; 2) the 8's in the date don't appear to close in the middle as they should; 3) given the overall wear of the coin, LIBERTY looks too indistinct; 4) the CC mintmark definitely looks out of whack and improperly positioned; 5) the tailfeathers don't look normal.

 

Are these any of the things you noticed? Or, do I need to do a little more homework before I buy an 1889-CC in MS65? (:

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robec1347

robec1347

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The chin sticks out further than the authenic Morgan, the CC appears to be a different font as well as some of the letters from "In God We Trust".... the "I" and "t" in particular. The eagles left talon is also shaped different. The Arrow heads have sharper points on the authentic '89.

 

Fake reverse

d7ad_1.JPG.jpg

 

Authentic reverse

1889ccxfdetR-2.jpg

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jesbroken

jesbroken

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Nice try Mark! Being nice doesn't necessarily work as the results prove. Now 4 bidders are going to be surprised, especially the winner. This fellow has shown his colors. Hopefully, Ebay will now do something about it. We all know you tried.

 

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BillJones

BillJones

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I agree with the civil approach, Mark, but then you get guys like this.

 

A seller was offering an 1831 half cent (a rare coin) that was altered from an 1832. I sent a polite message informing him that his coin was a counterfeit. His response was, "We have a very liberal return policy."

 

Ya, well that won't help the guy if he finds out the coin is a counterfeit a couple of years from now, and you have disappeared.

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TerrapinWill

TerrapinWill

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I think Mark's approach is still the best way to address the problem. In this case it looks like further steps need to be taken, which is appropriate. In life I think its best to give people the benefit of the doubt. What was it that reagan said...."trust, but verify"

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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Mark, I'm curious to know what the "pointers" were that led you to determine that it is a counterfeit. I'm not questioning your expertise, but I would like to know if I am seeing the same things: 1) the denticles on the obverse don't look right, particularly between 3 & 5 o'clock; 2) the 8's in the date don't appear to close in the middle as they should; 3) given the overall wear of the coin, LIBERTY looks too indistinct; 4) the CC mintmark definitely looks out of whack and improperly positioned; 5) the tailfeathers don't look normal.

 

Are these any of the things you noticed? Or, do I need to do a little more homework before I buy an 1889-CC in MS65? (:

A few of you guys mentioned some specific pointers, but ones that I didn't need to get to. And I didn't have to look at the reverse to know the coin was a counterfeit.

 

In addition to some of the characteristics noted by others in this thread, the subject coin and numerous other counterfeits I have seen on Ebay all displayed the wrong head type of Ms. Liberty on the obverse - the somewhat different style that is only seen on 1921 Morgan Dollars. If you are not already familiar with the variation on the 1921 Morgan's, check out a few images of the 1921 compared to other dates.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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By the way, while, due to limited space, I stressed the "polite approach" in the thread title, equally or more important is the "informative approach". Merely saying something like "Your coin is a counterfeit and I'm going to report you for your scam" doesn't provide the seller with any information regarding whether the coin is really a counterfeit or not.

 

Imagine that you are the owner/seller of an item that you bought as genuine and are being told by a complete stranger that it's counterfeit. Why should or would you believe that person? It's difficult enough to accept the truth when you have FACTS and aren't being put on the defensive. It's all-but-impossible when you are being attacked and provided with no verifiable facts. So, please hit such sellers with politeness and facts! It really can make a difference.

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jesbroken

jesbroken

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Mark,

The following pics represent the 1921/1889CC/EbayFake, I can readily see the chin difference and of course the coloration is ridiculous, but are their other factors you can point out on the obverse. Thanks for your time.

 

counterfeitcomparison.jpg

 

Edited to add: Dummy me, I now see the lettering is also ridiculously wrong.

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TerrapinWill

TerrapinWill

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reagrding the relisting I emailed him and suggested that he remove this listing as well. I told him that I didnt really have a dog in this fight, but that he could possibly be NARU'd as a result (not sure its true). I also suggested he could be in legal trouble (kind of a bluff I think) if the coin was counterfeit as opposed to altered.

 

He said he'd consider removig the newer listing

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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I must be blind, I don't see the differences. Other then the wing's on the reverse not being close enough to the rim, they all look the same.
I know that the 1921 Morgan dollars look different from other dates. Embarrassingly, however, I'm unable to articulate and relay precisely how I know they look different. :pullhair:Can someone help me out here?
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jesbroken

jesbroken

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Mark

1) Lower jaw crease is curved on pre1921 coins. 1921 is straighter.

2) The nostril holes are longer and more pronounced on the pre1921 coins.

3) The lower rear skirt of the cap has more of a pronounced holelike fold in the pre 1921 coins whereas the 1921 has only a wrinkle.

4) There seems something different in the fullness of the lips in the 1921(maybe more full and less defined than the pre1921 coins)

5) Something grabs me as different in the chin but I cannot for the life of me put my finger on it.

Hope this helps. JMO.

 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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Mark

1) Lower jaw crease is curved on pre1921 coins. 1921 is straighter.

2) The nostril holes are longer and more pronounced on the pre1921 coins.

3) The lower rear skirt of the cap has more of a pronounced holelike fold in the pre 1921 coins whereas the 1921 has only a wrinkle.

4) There seems something different in the fullness of the lips in the 1921(maybe more full and less defined than the pre1921 coins)

5) Something grabs me as different in the chin but I cannot for the life of me put my finger on it.

Hope this helps. JMO.

Thanks so much! (thumbs u
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