NGC FAKE SLAB!! (Part II)

[bsshog40]

Interesting. No space between VF and 20. Nothing else immediately strikes me.

I agree, and I wouldn't really have paid attention to that.

[rrantique]

Here is the Google cache of the page:

 

Fake NGC Slab

 

 

[font:Arial Black] Clients pls confirm both the money and the coin you auctioned and your address through your emails. After beening checked the money your have paid through my account, I will send the coin you ordered by airmail parcel post. The freight covers 7-10 days. The client must also remind that your paying is including the postage(One Coin for 5 USD, two for 6, three for 7 and four for 8; postage to Taiwan Area is USD 18 for one coin). I will inform you as soon as the coin being sent. And Wish You A Good Luck!

 

[/font]

[Conder101]

There are definite differences in the font they are using for the grade Here are some comparison pictures of just the label area. Sorry for the quality of the images. Labels from the fakes are above and a label from a real label below them.

 

First the AU. Note the vertical descender on the right side of the genuine U

 

Then the VF. It is difficult to see on the images but the fake has serifs on the arms and there is a noticeable difference in the lengths of the arms. On the real one the top arm has a single serif and the lower arm doesn't. The arms on the real one are short and about the same length. On the fake the V comes down evenly to the point which has a flat bottom. On the genuine the letter comes to a sharp point with the left side coming in at a much sharper angle than the right side. You see a definite change in the slope about three fourths of the way down the left leg.

 

There are also some differences in the font of the lettering that they use when the have words on the top line. Note the E used in the two fake labels with the E in Barber on the genuine VF. On the fake the top and bottom arms are the same length while on the genuine the bottom arm is noticeably longer.

[conqueror]

Condor101 now would this applied to all genuine NGC labels?

 

John

[rrantique]

There are definite differences in the font they are using for the grade Here are some comparison pictures of just the label area. Sorry for the quality of the images. Labels from the fakes are above and a label from a real label below them.

 

First the AU. Note the vertical descender on the right side of the genuine U

 

Then the VF. It is difficult to see on the images but the fake has serifs on the arms and there is a noticeable difference in the lengths of the arms. On the real one the top arm has a single serif and the lower arm doesn't. The arms on the real one are short and about the same length. On the fake the V comes down evenly to the point which has a flat bottom. On the genuine the letter comes to a sharp point with the left side coming in at a much sharper angle than the right side. You see a definite change in the slope about three fourths of the way down the left leg.

 

There are also some differences in the font of the lettering that they use when the have words on the top line. Note the E used in the two fake labels with the E in Barber on the genuine VF. On the fake the top and bottom arms are the same length while on the genuine the bottom arm is noticeably longer.

 

Conder I don't see the scales on the fake label. Dou you guys see it?

[Conder101]

Condor101 now would this applied to all genuine NGC labels?

You can only apply them to the current generation of NGC slab. Different generations often have different fonts used on the labels. If they counterfeited a different generation slab you would have to make comparison with genuine slabs of that same generation. For example the U with the vertical descender has only been in use since I believe mid 2003.

 

Conder I don't see the scales on the fake label. Dou you guys see it?

No I don't, but if you look at the pictures of the real one that I posted you will see that they don't show well on those either and they were much better images than the fakes were. Generation 8 and generations 10 and later slabs often don't show the scales well or even at all in pictures or scans. Without having the chance to examine on of the fakes in hand I can't say for sure if the scales are there or not.

[nwcs]

Either way, I have to wonder what NGC will do to address this. It strikes right at the core of their business. You can never defeat counterfeiting but you can sure make it a fight.

[djdilliodon]

For starters i think NGC should start etching the serial numbers in a certain unique way on the holders.

[nwcs]

Etching would be a help. Anything that can be fabricated can be duplicated, so I think some sort of RFID would also be useful. Even if most consumers wouldn't have a reader it is something that dealers could use and help weed out counterfeits.

[bsshog40]

I think some sort of a watermark might be good in the labels?

[nwcs]

Watermarks, like the scales, don't always show up in pictures. Maybe they can do something like what the US Mint does. Embedded threads, mixed color thread pieces mixed into the label paper, and micro printing.

[Conder101]

Anything that can be fabricated can be duplicated, so I think some sort of RFID would also be useful.

So the counterfeiter adds an RFID as well. They're cheap, and can be programmed to send whatever information you want. So it would be easy to program them to send the same information the genuine slab, whose label is being copied, would send.

[lkenefic]

Anything that can be fabricated can be duplicated, so I think some sort of RFID would also be useful.

So the counterfeiter adds an RFID as well. They're cheap, and can be programmed to send whatever information you want. So it would be easy to program them to send the same information the genuine slab, whose label is being copied, would send.

 

...yeah... isn't forgery/fraud something like the "second oldest profession"???

[nwcs]

Well, if the RFID is encrypted with a strong encryption it would be harded to just copy without having the same signature coin to work with although that could probably be arranged. As I said, you can't do anything but make it harder on them.

[MrEureka-migration]

The first thing NGC should do photograph more coins, make the photos available online, and note on the slab if the photo is online. This will slow the bleeding and provide some additional comfort and security to coin buyers.

 

[nwcs]

They could also come up with a code system for the label. Something that uniquely identfies it but is encrypted in some way. Then maybe you call NGC or, if you are a registered user, input the code and see if it matches. Not unbeatable but would provide a two factor authentication for the slab.

[Conder101]

The photography would be a good idea. The RFID or an encrypted code in the serial number won't help too much because if it can be copied it is defeated. For a printed code all I have to do is make a copy of what is printed on the label. For the RFID I just need a reader that can record what the chip broadcasts. I don't have to decrypt it, just program my chips to broadcast the same thing. Then make a dozen of two of the same slab. Serial number checks out, RFID does as well. But getting the coin in the fake slab to match the online photo could be tough. But you will have to have good enough photos so they can be blown up enough to note individual bagmarks and such. That could be a problem.

[nwcs]

Not if the second code was unique to the serial number. It would make it much harder to just copy from an existing one because the two wouldn't match. They'd have to crack the algorithm. Photos have a flaw because so many have similar looks and not everyone is discerning enough to recognize the minute differences.

[Zoins]

The photography would be a good idea. The RFID or an encrypted code in the serial number won't help too much because if it can be copied it is defeated. For a printed code all I have to do is make a copy of what is printed on the label. For the RFID I just need a reader that can record what the chip broadcasts. I don't have to decrypt it, just program my chips to broadcast the same thing. Then make a dozen of two of the same slab. Serial number checks out, RFID does as well. But getting the coin in the fake slab to match the online photo could be tough. But you will have to have good enough photos so they can be blown up enough to note individual bagmarks and such. That could be a problem.

For authentication they would likely use a public key crypto algorithm that isn't subject to replay attacks. These algorithms are very common. If this is the case, it would be very difficult to duplicate the broadcast because it would be different for every authentication.

 

That being said, I think it would be great if the TPG cert verification websites to had high res photos.

[nwcs]

Well, adding photos would certainly increase the cost of submission and affect delivery time. Would everyone want that?

[Zoins]

Well, adding photos would certainly increase the cost of submission and affect delivery time. Would everyone want that?

Just about anything effective they do would increase the business costs for the service. Whether or not they pass that cost on to the submitter is a different issue.

 

If they see lack of authentication as hurting submissions then they may be more willing to bear the costs.

[Zoins]

Watermarks, like the scales, don't always show up in pictures. Maybe they can do something like what the US Mint does. Embedded threads, mixed color thread pieces mixed into the label paper, and micro printing.

I doubt this would work that well given how counterfeiters have made counterfeit Microsoft labels.

[nwcs]

In the end, I still think 2 factor authentication is probably the most practical way of managing the risk. At least for those who use it.

[Conder101]

Not if the second code was unique to the serial number. It would make it much harder to just copy from an existing one because the two wouldn't match.

And where would this second code be? If it is printed on the slab label, why couldn't I just copy it as well? Same thing goes for the RFID. All they do is broadcast a series of ones and zeros. All of the decoding is done in the receiver to determine what they mean. I don't need to know what it says or how to decode it. All I have to do is record the ones and zeros and then program my RFID to broadcast the same series of ones and zeros.

 

I'm not trying to create new labels. To do that you would have to crack the encryption or they will be uncovered immediately. My goal as a counterfeiter is to create multiple copies of a genuine existing slab.

[michael_s-migration]

I stumbled across another suspicious NGC slab:

1870 Silver Yen

 

I've never seen an NGC label that doesn't properly center the grade. Also, the font just doesn't look right to me, and the seller is in China with zero feedback.

 

And, most importantly, the instructions in the auction are the same as in the auction that started this thread. Yup, word for word, the same horrible grammar.

 

Can a more experienced collector verify my suspicions, and report this to NGC?

 

Thanks.

 

-Mike

 

PS I apologize for posting a darkside coin in the US forum.

[Conder101]

Yes I strongly suspect this is also a fake slab, but it looks like they might have corrected one of the text font flaws. Hard to tell with the poor pictures. Another reason to suspect it is a fake is that the seller currently has one other auction up, and it is in a fake ANACS slab.

 

I know you want to report these to eBay and NGC but I'm kind of torn over it. I'm still trying to acquire one of each of these fakes for closer study.

[stinkycheese1]

Here's pictures of the slab before it goes POOF.

 

[stinkycheese1]

At least this time the coin looks to be real.

Looks like a silver coin at least.

 

[michael_s-migration]

It might be real, but for a MS62 it has quite a lot of (what appears to be) wear to the ribbon on the reverse.

 

Did they use a cert number that matches that coin?

 

-Mike

[gmarguli]

The cert matches.