124Spider

Perhaps a clearer example is the American Eagle one-ounce silver coins, which come in both proof and "uncirculated" strikes. Am I correct that the strike for that "uncirculated" coin is a much higher-order process than the strike for the business strike coins? Similarly, am I correct that the Kennedy half dollar, now that it's not circulated, still is struck the same way it was when it was circulated? Finally, how can people be advertising the not-yet-issued Morgan and Peace dollars (which are not proof; specifications included "uncirculated" finish) as certified as MS70 (there is an ad in the "Coin Marketplace" here for some), if it's very unlikely that any one person will get a coin of that grade? Mark

I have no interest in sending coins in for grading (as I said in one of the earlier posts). I am trying to understand the system. I was using grades to do that. So the U.S. Mint's "uncirculated coin" sets are just business strike coins packages as a set, so we don't have to buy rolls at a bank to get them? They are different sort of strike than, say, the recent 2021 Morgan dollars? Mark

So people do submit the "burnished" coin versions of business strike coins for certification?

So if one were to break coins out of the US Mint's "uncirculated coin set" (say, a nickel), one could send that in for certification? Yes, I understand that that rarely makes financial sense, but "burnished" coins would be graded, and slabbed, in the same manner, and with the same designations, as business strike coins? So, for instance, one wanting to have as many MS70 coins as possible for a collection could buy sets of the burnished coins (the Mint's "uncirculated coin sets"), and hope to get an MS70 out of that? Understand, I don't intend to do that, but I'm curious about the process, especially that there are no MS70 coins in the census of recent Lincoln cents. Thanks. Mark

Hi, I keep reading that the 70-point grading system is used for business strike coins only (with a separate--though parallel--scale for proof coins from 60-70). And I know that the US Mint produces three types of strikes: Business strike, coins struck not for circulation (but not proof), and proof coins. As I understand it, the "coins struck not for circulation" are higher quality than the business strike coins. But I do see uncirculated coins made just for collectors with PCGS/NGC certification, generally with MS69 or MS70 grades. Do TPGs only certify and grade such coins when there are no business strike versions of such coins? So one would never see a certified coin out of an "uncirculated coin" set sold by the US Mint, for coins which do have business strike brethren? Thanks. Mark

Very cool, thanks! There is a remarkable romance around an ancient coin, especially one that obviously circulated for a while; if only it could talk! Mark

I like die-error coins, and I was curious what an MS68 RD Lincoln cent would look like up close. And it cost a tiny fraction of what an MS69 RD cost (top graded level of this variety; of course, there are thousands of MS68 slabs, and only a few dozen MS69, so I guess it's the "condition rarity" I just learned about). So I bought it. And I like it!

Could tell us uninformed folks what this coin is? Thanks. Mark

I drove up to their new production facility in Sumas, WA a few months ago to buy some albums. They definitely are in production, but COVID restrictions have hampered their rate of production. Mark

I appreciate the adult way in which you educated me into what I was missing. Thank you. Mark

Without responding to your gratuitous personal attack, I will point out (i) you then went on to validate much of what I said, and (ii) if it is your intention to help/educate the less fortunate, being demeaning and nasty is not an effective way to do that. Good day, sir. Mark

I do the "best I can afford" route, and I manage (if I'm patient and spread the purchases out) to "afford" non-ugly coins. So, for instance, acknowledging that there are no "rare" Jefferson nickels (at least not talking of varieties), I decided some time ago that merely having every slot in my Dansco albums filled wasn't satisfying (ugly coins don't do much for me, emotionally), so I slowly upgraded all the old, ugly nickels, at least to AU58. Now it gives me pleasure to look at the album and see all the coins are appealing, and it didn't cost a lot of money. But if I had gone after every one in the top grade (80+ years of that!), it would have cost a great deal of money, and not have given any greater emotional pleasure (and possibly less, since I like looking at albums more than looking at slabs). Mark

Yeah, I have long understood that for non-common coins. But it surprised me to see that happening even for quite plebeian coins at the top of the grading scale.

Certainly, many people can pay $1000 for a coin, and one does not have to be "exceedingly wealthy" to do that. But one must be quite wealthy to do that for every coin in a set (e.g., buying the top coin of every Lincoln cent would be very, very expensive in aggregate), and I don't understand the logic behind doing it just for one or two coins in a set. Yeah, for billionaires, it must be a bit of a challenge to figure out how to feel like you've accomplished anything (beyond having the money), when you can buy any little thing you want without concern for its price. A "first world problem," to be sure, but it does, I suspect, lead to an acquisitive streak of "mine's bigger than yours" to grab all the best of the best. But I'm not sure it leads to the same kind of pleasure that I feel when I spring for an expensive (to me) coin that I've wanted for a while. Mark

Hi, I had reason recently to look fairly closely at the NGC values for lots and lots of American coins. And I found something that I found interesting. For virtually every coin, whether rare or completely common, the value given for the top graded grade was much higher than for the next lower grade (often ten times--or more--greater. I can only conclude that there are a significant number of exceedingly wealthy people who don't much care what they pay for "the best," as long as they get "the best." Is this a correct conclusion? Thanks. Mark

Hi, In the frenzy to try to get an order through during the 20 minutes before they sold out, I got an extra new Morgan "O" and one less "CC than I wanted. Obviously, I don't have my "O" coin yet, and I know nobody has a "CC" coin yet, but I'm just hoping that someone might have done the opposite of what I did and want a trade the other way. Thanks. Mark

If you look at a lot of these coins (and I looked at a LOT of them before choosing to buy this one), the three variables graded are (i) how worn; (ii) quality of strike, and (iii) quality of the surface. What is not covered by the grading is how badly off-center the strike is. For whatever reason, this particular type of coin, struck over a long period of time, was struck on a planchet that was too small for the die, so almost all of them have some portion of Athena cut off (usually a huge portion of her helmet/crest and/or her nose and/or chin). So you can have a well struck coin, uncirculated, with an excellent surface, with low visual appeal, because Athena is missing some important part and/or the owl is way off center or missing part. This one isn't quite "full crest," but almost, and it was by far the best of the examples I saw that I was willing to pay for. So I bought it. You'll note that it is graded for wear, just like modern coins. Perhaps modern coins should be graded for quality of strike and quality of surface, also. Mark

Thanks! If you promise not to tell anyone else (I'm sure it would be considered the most heinous sort of heresy in these parts), I'll tell you that we cracked the beautiful coin out of the holder (NOT a trivial task!), brought it to a wonderful custom jeweler we have used a lot, and had a bezel made for it, out of 18K gold, and got a fairly heavy--and long--18K chain for it. We emphasized that we feel a strong sense of responsibility for this coin that has been around for almost 2500 years, and wanted it mounted in a way that would not damage the coin, and they did a fabulous job (the gold hue is what it does in certain light; the surface is untouched from when it was in the slab). My wife and I are both thrilled, and the beautiful coin sees the light of day much more than it would if it sat in the safe (my wife practically wants to wear it to bed). If we ever change our minds (unlikely, since both of our adult daughters are charmed by it), we can send it in for authentication and certification again. It's a very happy Owl, I think!

I had a reproduction of one of these when I was a small kid (I am half Greek, and have always loved ancient history and Greek mythology). Now that I'm a big kid, I decided to own a real one. I'm thrilled beyond measure.

Cool; great story! I'm not a risk-taker; yes, I understand that one has to risk something significant to get significant gains, but I'm not looking for anything but having fun, and to get fair value for my money. Enjoy your game (as you obviously are). I am quite happy to plod along as a "responsible, cautious collector." Mark

This has become a bit far-reaching, which is fun, but I'm not sure what you're referring to. I started this thread, after finding that the photos of a Mercury dime I was looking at for possible purchase graded by NGC at AU50 showed a coin (both obverse and reverse) that was, at best, comparable to a very similar coin I own that was graded by NGC at XF40 (and clearly inferior to two other Mercury dimes I own graded by NGC at XF45 and AU53). So, no, I wasn't able to look at them next to each other. But I was able to compare high-resolution photos of both. Does this answer your question? Mark

I'm guessing here, but it sounds like you play at the very pointy-end of the bell-shaped curve of price/quality, where I never tread with any significant coin. When you're buying a rare coin literally at the top of the grading scale for that coin, the grading has (i) been done by PCGS (or NGC), and (ii) the entire scale of the transaction (and the quality of the vendor with whom you are dealing) is such that you probably feel pretty confident that you're going to get what you paid for, sight unseen. That's great, and perhaps "Buy the coin, not the holder" does not have any applicability for such a transaction. I, on the other hand, own only 32 certified coins, out of well over 2000 coins in my collections (and those are recent additions to the collections). When I venture into the deep water (which, for me, is anything above around $300, and only rarely even involves a mint state coin), seeing good photos of the coin before I write a large (to me) check (especially given that I care more about subjective appearance than about the grade) is very important to me. Heck, after enough disappointments with optimistically-graded coins on which I spent $50 or so, I'm reluctant to buy any significant coin without good photos. I have great awe and respect for people with the means and desire to buy the very best of the very best coins. But I think it's fair to say that most collectors are snagging a $10 Mercury dime from an online vendor, not bidding for that 1909-S VDB at MS67RD, and most of us want to know, when we venture a bit into the deep water, exactly what that coin looks like before we buy it.

It was not my intention to assert that you are wrong; sorry if it came across that way. My intention was to provide objective evidence backing up my subjective impression that I almost never see an AU58 version of a coin priced higher than an MS60-62 version of the same coin by the same vendor; citing the NGC price guide, which I assume is based on lots of data, was meant to assert merely that my subjective impression is not any less valid than yours.

I just looked through the NGC price guide for the old series which I collect: Lincoln cents, buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes, standing Liberty quarters, walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan dollars and Peace dollars; I found exactly one coin for which MS60 had a lower price than AU58, and every other coin had the MS60 with a higher value (often much higher) than the AU58. This comports with my experience exactly (which is why I own lots of AU58 coins, and very few MS60-62)..

I have tried to make it clear that I am not an expert, or even a long-time, serious collector. But I have spent a great deal of time in the last year prospecting for coins all over the internet, and I am very certain that I routinely see AU58 for less than any MS coin (usually significantly less), throughout the series that I collect (Lincoln cents; buffalo nickels; Jefferson nickels; Mercury dimes; Roosevelt dimes; standing Liberty quarters; Washington quarters; walking Liberty half dollars; Morgan dollars, and Peace dollars).