Henri Charriere

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

The "crack out" game is so ubiquitous that any hope of "encapsulated coin represents a population the sanctity of which must be honored if it is to have any meaning at all for a hobby" is a ship long since sailed. There is exactly ZERO sanctity of any population report of any slabbed coins. The number of truly unique coins slabbed is a small fraction of the number of slabbings, except perhaps for low value moderns. People are not returning crack out labels for deletion from the populations. I've walked many an ANA coin show watching dealers who have just purchased slabbed coins from a collector proceed to place the slabs on a chair leg and literally stomp on the slabs with a boot heel to break them open in order to resubmit them. Just a normal buy/sell spread is not enough for many dealers; they want the "upgrade plus buy/sell" margin. In other words, if they look at a coin and they don't think they can win the "crack out" game, they'll never buy the coin in the first place.

I find it absolutely despicable that the hobby I enjoyed as a child (where Morgan dollars were available for the asking from the local bank) has descended to the level that what I chose to regard as rumor is a robust phenomenon with a name: crack-out.  The last time I violated a tenet of my religion, and requested cross-grading service, I was pleasantly surprised when one was up-graded and all labels were returned to me unsolicited and I saw that the necessary adjustments had been made to the respective TPG populations involved.

23 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

We needn't, and probably shouldn't, for fear of being expelled from this board, exchange "greetings" from my sister. It wouldn't pass muster from the moderators for sure. It's a politics and estate thing.

What a shame!  I am sure she has her own theory as to why Brenner's initials were removed from the reverse AND why they were placed on Lincoln's right shoulder [where they can be viewed in all their incised, bas-relief splendor with a thirty mag lens].  Ha! Ha! Ha!  Dino the Dinosaur, indeed.

4 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

And she told me to say "hi" for her.

Thanks. 

2 hours ago, Morpheus1967 said:

What are you talking about.  

An encapsulated coin represents a population the sanctity of which must be honored if it is to have any meaning at all for a hobby beset by unreported de-encapsulations and mass meltings of unknown quantities of precious metals.  A Hoard is simply a point of reference like S.S.C.A. shipwreck gold helpful in establishing provenance. Price is dictated by supply and demand.  Some of the more notable Hoard releases have shifted the orbits of some major compilations for all time.

7 hours ago, kbbpll said:

How about if you just leave me out of this? I already said that I don't know anything about these. I looked up "French 20-franc gold rooster" and that was the extent of it. Now you're lumping me in with some nefarious cabal who is out to ignore your precious niche. I don't appreciate it. Life and coin collecting are unfair. Get over it.

The commutation papers are on the governor's desk awaiting his signature.

On 7/8/2020 at 10:48 AM, MarkFeld said:

Alan, why do you despise that terminology? Your way of describing it would certainly take the  out of it!

True.  Sounds way better than a hobo nickel.

On 7/2/2020 at 6:45 AM, Morpheus1967 said:

Take it out of the slab and tell me the difference between a 2017 eagle proof and one from the 2020 "West Point Hoard".  

Inherently bad form to even suggest this but an entirely legitimate query.

I do not know what kind of Journal you have in mind but I would avoid changing the name to The Wall Street Journal.

6 hours ago, RWB said:

A "bag mark" can be a "scratch." It's only a matter of detail - both are damage. And -- it didn't hit the strings so no noise was made.

And the intact accent aigu over the lower-case e and well-defined dentil work -- and superb overall condition contribute to the desirability of your coin. 

On 7/5/2020 at 12:08 AM, kbbpll said:

There are 4 MS67 and one MS67+ sold on Heritage.

There are actually 13 NCG-graded MS67s and 27 PCGS-graded MS67s and two more graded 67+, one each from the above TPG fraternity that for reasons frowned upon by "the experts" remain unacknowledged. That's 42 gorgeous gems BUT not one from the period I tabbed 1899 to 1906, generally referred to as the originals. Imagine paying well over $1,000 for a legitimate coin one-half the investor community refuses to recognize, much less acknowledge, as evident in your response which is by no means uncommon. [If the Dino the Dinosaur guy is watching, how about some "perspective" on this?]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:39 PM, Ratzie33 said:

There is something to be said for a coin whose minting predates a country's existence.

On 7/13/2020 at 4:53 PM, MillerTime710 said:

So does this one have any errors 

The only error I see is mis-placement of the entry wound.  Lincoln was shot, while seated, from behind.

Short set?  Ha! Ha! Ha!  I have two complete sets: one PCGS and a hybrid comprised of superseded PCGS coins, seven NGC, an ANACS, and five or six raw uncertified Mint State gems.  Upgrading is ongoing.  I learned the actual grading process inadvertently when I submitted two specimens for cross-grading, learned that both passed muster as MS66s and immediately received an overture from a company stating they had two coins which would fill the voids in one collection quite handsomely as they were the precise dates I had submitted.  When I wrote Customer Service for an assurance this was an incredible coincidence and not my coins, I received a doctoral-like dissertation on the entire process meticulously adhered to in their hermetically-sealed assembly-line of consultations.  The "short set" you refer to lacks one coin, matching the other seven in grade, leaving me with a Hobson's choice familiar to all Rooster collectors: squandering additional funds on a coin with the appropriate dress-slab; engaging in further mass cross-grading which is, at base, a totally unnecessary, superfluous, technical expenditure of funds -- or waiting for NGC to accept world "gold" coinage certified by other TPGs, as it is expected to do in due course, a long overdue, but economically wise move that should have been undertaken in the last millennium.  One final thought: there is a difference between grabbing a bite to eat, and dining. If I were to secure Dino the Dinosaur's signed endorsement of the use of my sentimental, high-powered, half- century old loupe (in lieu of a microscope) would you be willing to let that matter lie or would you rather risk an abdominal aorta aneurism continuing to harp on a relatively minor matter akin to whether I should remove my hat when entering an elevator occupied by women or wearing pegged vs. fully-cuffed trousers?  Grading, ideally, appears to be nothing more than Grade Point Average -- a consensus reached after a meeting of the minds.

You wouldn't understand. I am a collector; not an investor. A connoisseur of French 20-franc or coq Marianne. My 30X loupe was a gift from a jeweler I worked for at a Diamond District (NYC) storefront in 1971. I have a very handy, totally useless 6X glass which my wife now uses to read the daily paper.  The fact that a mere rank amateur -- your professional diagnosis I am honored to accept -- managed to compile the # 1 ranked Rooster Roster on the West Coast will hopefully provide the needed motivation to inspire the handful of serious contenders out there to complete their respective collections to the best of their ability.  I appreciate your input!

Ebay and the larger, well-known auctions houses are giant juggernauts which for the most part eschew discussion and negotiation.  Two of the more notable responses I have received, both from highly regarded, long-time establishments are a curt reference to a coin's "Fair Market Value," and a gleefully snarky: "How badly do you want it?" (Both were evoked through exceedingly polite, well-reasoned texting on my part.)

While I cannot argue with VKurtBs premise, I cannot help but recall that sequence in the movie Trading Places where Dan Ackroyd, down on his luck, is compelled to enumerate the various attributes of his "sculptured" $6,953 roche foucault wristwatch, functional to a depth of "three atmospheres," when the proprietor of a pawnshop cooly responds with, "Here in Philadelphia [your watch] is worth fifty bucks," effectively ending all negotiation.

Last year when I called a well-regarded Florida dealer to complain that the MS66 Rooster he had sold me had a distinct thumb print on its reverse prompting me to examine it more closely with a 30X glass, I was told, "you should be using 7 magnification!" When I persisted, he offered to take it back, but I demurred as it was not he who had graded the coin but one of the TPGs. Would that same coin have been graded MS67 minus the 'print?  Could I have used the "defect" as a bargaining chip [as VKurtB undoubtedly would have done]? Undoubtedly.

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

No, not a third-party grader. He can only influence the range of negotiations. Only a buyer and seller coming to an agreement can determine what anything is worth.

This query is deserving of a serious response.  I submitted a number of raw French 20-franc gold roosters to a third-party grader absolutely confident that one would be the very first ever accorded a MS68 grade, minimum. (I own five graded MS67 so I know what excellence looks like and revel in the term, "none graded finer.")

Imagine my disappointment when this impeccable coin, strongly struck, with sharp devices, dazzling eye appeal and original mint lustre and no observable defects was dismissed as a mere MS64+!  Worse, it is not a part of my Set Registry rated # 1.  Submit it for "reconsideration"?  Out of the question.  Like the teenager rebuffed for years after claiming he had found a 1943 copper Lincoln cent, I will keep it and never offer it for sale.  

I don't believe I have any Peace Dollars but am aware of their unique wear anomalies.  Your specimen is what I would call suspect subjectivity, particularly since is has been "certified."  The only saving grace is silver prices are rising. How does one draw the line between an coin that has not been cleaned -- and one with poor eye appeal?  I sympathize with you completely.

This is a most regrettable, cringe-worthy question:  I have something; what is it worth?  The truth is only a third-party grader is qualified to make that determination (called a "certification" as opposed to "authentication") today, particularly in the Mint State range of 60 to 70.  Fortunately, for you, the coin's gold "melt value" has risen considerably since the date of your post.

3 hours ago, Lancek said:

I'm surprised no one has chimed in with this yet.  But minting equipment of that time was inferior to what all mints put out today.  You could pull 100 coins directly off the press 100 years ago and none would be a 70.  They just couldn't produce that kind of strike quality.  Pull 100 coins off the press today, 99 will be a 70.

Even 30 or 40 years ago the mint barely put out any 70s.  I collect modern commems.  '83, '84 '86... 70s are rare, and expensive.  Even those that have always been in the mint packaging.  Compared to '17, '18, '19... 70s are the norm

GSA Morgans, found locked away in a mint vault for decades.  Many never released for circulation.  Issued directly to the public in hard plastic cases.  Many still in those cases.  According the the OPs initial assumption, those should all be 70s right?  And yet we all know only a handful get even close to that.

 

 

You bring up an interesting point which inadvertently explains the marked disparity between the quality of the so-called original roosters, 1899-1906, and the so-called restrikes, 1907-1914, minted decades later [a subject explored in detail on various European websites].

For the time being, having distributed my APBs and BOLOs, I will just have to sell off my excess inventory -- and monitor my electronic mail.

On 7/8/2020 at 4:29 PM, VKurtB said:

I stand amused by folks who collect gold coins (by definition not cheap), and then gripe about seemingly trivial expenses such as TPG firm memberships and (yes, I really have seen this) the costs to park at a major national coin show. Perspective, people. Can we keep this stuff in perspective? Huh?

 

But Quintus is right about one thing. Especially as it pertains to World gold, there is far more out there raw than the grand total of slabs, in a wide variety of grades, even gaudy high grades. Finding them may require travel. That is, if the airfares and hotel room costs don't break your bank reserved for gold coins. SHEESH!

 

By the way, if you can ever complete ANY collection in 90 days, just how desirable could it possibly be?

1.  Bullion gold is expensive but five French 20-franc gold roosters do not even equal one American Gold Eagle [in AGW].

2.  Upgrading is a continual affair.  You will always have a cache of superseded coins you no longer want which can be used to obtain what you need. I have never found it necessary to travel to develop my collection. If you have a cell and an innate curiosity, and are willing to take calculated risks, you're good. International transactions do not intimidate me. Time is of the essence; if you prefer to "sleep on a decision" overnight you will invariably discover your rare opportunity is gone, particularly with eBay.

3.  There are many approaches to coin collecting.  It is a shame the TPG Shotcallers are totally unaware of the peculiar conundrum faced by those handful of collectors who, for whatever reason, run into the walls and glass ceilings of assembling a quality grade collection. My Set Registry is # 1 [at PCGS] but is hardly the desirable collection it could and should  be. What's really needed is an end to the East Coast-West Coast rivalry, a merger of all TPG, and the adoption of one universally accepted standard application of the best of all grading systems -- and an eventual leap forward to laser-grading.  [We also need a return to  the Golden Age of truly magnificent U.S. coinage and currency: devoid of clearly manufactured errors in coins and bleeding dyes in currency. The Lincoln cent, prettied up with a cosmetic composition is an embarrassment] and perhaps an annual heavily- publicized world-wide approach to enticing the non-collector to come in with their inherited finds as a public service to collectors.

A glance at all the woefully incomplete French 20-franc gold rooster Set Registry compilations give one the impression the well-intentioned collector bit off more than they can chew, are in over their heads, and languish in silence.  This must end.

One final note: any suggestion there may be a correlation between a well put together collection assembled by a well-positioned collector, quickly, that reflects on its "desirability" is strictly in the eye of the beholder. Whole rare collections come on the auction block regularly and are swooped up instantly, its purchasers often cloaked in anonymity.  This allows for the release of superfluous high-quality specimens if not held by a fanatic. And the cycle continues.

This is true.  This particular coin is called a gold rooster but contains less than a fifth of a troy ounce of gold.  It was my original intent to complete my collection, at a high-quality Mint State level in 90 days but going well into my 1st year I realize now that that was a pipe dream.  I appreciate your  clarification and thank you for taking the time to answer. The top tier coins are out there somewhere raw and unappreciated.

I believe it is time I come right out and state what I know, not think, but KNOW what the major impediment to upper tier grading is, and let the chips fall where they may.

1.  A pronounced disinclination to assist the "collector" vs. the "investor" with the imposition of an unconscionably high fee schedule for membership and grading.

2. My pet peeve.  It should be obvious to anyone attempting, e.g., to complete a set registry of Roosters that one TPG dominates Europe, where most of the earlier roosters lie, raw and uncertified, while the other has firmly established their bi-coastal footprint in the United States forcing "collectors" of this sub-species of coin to engage in prohibitively high membership fees and risky cross-grading.

Ironically, NGC has for many years graded Roosters but will not (yet) accept gold World Coins along with those graded by other TPG in their Set Registry. Where does the the small "collector" fit into all this?  Does anyone truly believe the sale of raw, uncertified coins via the internet is foolproof? There is a gentleman on eBay right now who believes mere "authentication" of his Rooster constitutes "certification" which he insists was made without his knowledge. I urge all "collectors" (those who enjoy collecting as a hobby, irrespective of spot price) to exercise due diligence.

I appreciate your interest and honesty.  It's been said make no major decisions following major surgery.  I mistakenly believed 16 coins ought to be a cinch and, regrettably,  buoyed by painkillers, it hasn't been.

1.  Gold is soft but we are talking, what, .18% gold composition and 21 mm., not double eagles.

2.  I have dealt with all the highly-regarded coin emporiums whose wares (in France are priced in euros using their own quaint scale including FDC, or fleurs de coin, a range of from MS65-MS70.) I submitted it to a TPG here in the U.S. who pegged it at MS64+. Like a viewer pointed out, when you add all the ancillary expenses, insurance, and possible seizure by CBP, not to mention use of bank wires which some prefer, it is a harrowing experience.  The outstanding coins lie raw in Europe because collectors do not want to invest in formal grading which may or may not pass muster and only a Duchess of Sussex can afford.

3.  For reasons not entirely clear to me, Rooster set registrants do not feel comfortable discussing their obsession publicly. Recently, a veritable dump of 1907 mint state roosters appeared. Unspoken, was the thought that this one act served to devalue all existing slabs.  Archaeological treasures in Kabul, Afghanistan survived many centuries of warlord-riven lands but I believe, I hope, the best of the best exist and time will bring them to light.

As the owner of the No.: 1 Registry Set of the above-titled matter [Rooster Roster] my question to collectors is why is it both TPG have produced the following glaringly disparate grading populations results for the following years, as follows:   1899-1906, Mint State-67 = Zero or None (unavailable at any price despite mintages well into the millions.

By contrast, 1907-1914, Mint State-67 = 40  (pejoratively dismissed as re-strikes)

My question posed to fellow rooster collectors who have been stymied in completing their quality compilations is why do you suppose that is?

16 hours ago, kbbpll said:

There are 4 MS67 and one MS67+ sold on Heritage.

The official NGC population reports remain unchanged: for the specific orginal non-restrike tabbed period, 1899-1906, not a single 20-franc gold rooster (or coq Marianne) has been graded MS-67, or higher. [The figures given for MS-66 and MS-65 are similarly scarce.]  Why?