RWB

The only technical differences between the MCMVII UHR patterns and the regular issue MCMVII HR are: Different relief to face dies. EHR had 7 blows with annealing in between. HR had 3 blows with annealing in between. For both, annealing ended with a quick dip in dilute nitric acid to remove any "fire scale" (copper oxide) cause by heating. For both, this acid dip removed some of the surface copper. MCMVII HR did not lose enough copper to change their color much. MCMVII EHR patterns, however, were dipped 6 times - enough to remove nearly all surface copper. This produced a noticeably pure gold yellow, rather than the more orange color of 0.900 alloy. Physical tests were performed by the Smithsonian on their EHR pattern pieces. Curvature of either of these dies was too severe to allow any polishing except localized die repair, so surface texture changes relate more to planchet surfaces, and gradual adaptation of the dies to the mean planchet texture during use -- a completely normal physical process.

No. There are no proofs except as I stated. That is what the evidence says and any other conclusion is a lie. (Unless ALL are called "proofs.")

There's no debate. The facts are clear and the TPG who originally made the error has merely compounded that as a way of not paying it's guarantee to people who bought as "proof" when there were none. The first dies and collar used for the initial 500 pieces remained in use during the full duration of circulation coinage. One new pair and collar were added in November so production could be increased. Also, coins w/o a fin were made from the same dies/collars - it was merely a mechanical change in planchet upsetting.

There are no proofs, except for the patterns.

I found this and other letters almost 20 years ago. That's where the book's info came from. It's only now that we've been able to digitize the complete volumes.

Those who would like to leaf through some of the correspondence regarding the Saint-Gaudens coin designs can now access the files on NNP. Go to this URL: https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/archivedetail/512703. Select the years 1907 or 1908, and then look for the volumes shown on the list below. Be warned that these volumes are from 500 to 2,000 pages long, and letters are in chronological order; however, there is no index to any of them. (One day these will be fully searchable, but for now the task is to digitize everything we can.) E-235-Vol-365 1907 ST E-235-Vol-366 1907 P E-235-Vol-367 1907 Misc E-235-Vol-368 1908 P E-235-Vol-369 1908 ST E-235-Vol-370 1908 Misc Here's a sample letter tucked away in E-235 Vol 366"

$1,600 in defective (finned) DE were melted and recoined a few days after this letter. Dir Leach then worked directly with the Philadelphia Mint Coiner and Engraver to adjust planchet upsetting. This resulted in almost complete elimination of the problem. Engraver Barber was worried that the coins looked so good that the President might order them made with MCMVIII date the next year. A fin contained sufficient metal to render the coins underweight with only minimal handling or circulation. It is also ugly. All MCMVII circulation coins were made in the same way with the same dies and collars. Since all were intended for circulation, they are thus all normal circulation coins -- no "proofs" were ever made. The pattern pieces with higher relief could be considered "proofs" because they received more blows from the medal press and have surfaces that are enriched in gold...almost 100%. The full story is in Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 and a condensed version in the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle book.

How about a "steer?" Can a steer be a "gelding"? Huhhhh? Huhhhh? Is that were the design was changed by a "crack"?

These districts largely followed the old sub-Treasury pattern. A. Piatt Andrew (later mint director and asst sec treasury) was secretary to the commission and was instrumental in devising the organization.

Frank Leach was one of the best qualified people to be mint director. Another was Henry Linderman, and another was Robert Preston. All had long term experience, intelligence and good judgement. Several other directors developed into outstanding inhabitants of the office including Nellie Ross, George Roberts, and Robert Wooley.

It is a defect in the working die. It has no relationship to the design other than incidental.

This letter to the Secretary of Treasury might be of interest to some members.

Hmmm....$52.50 + commission

Minor adjustment --- a 1943 bronze cent is not a "transitional piece." That is, it was not intentionally produced to demonstrate what the coin would look like after a noticeable change. It was simply a mistake - an error - due to a few planchets being stuck in planchet bins.

Did not know that. Thanks.

"It's the Hard Knock Life" from Annie. It's the hard-knock life for us It's the hard-knock life for us 'Stead of treated We get tricked 'Stead of kisses We get kicked It's the hard-knock life

Retromodo: Complete fake. If the seller tells you it's real he/she is lying. If they say "I don't know" then they shouldn't be selling coins.

"Annie"

Yep. A coin with a musical written about it.

Was this one 'specially made for ancient communion ceremonies?

The dime's edge reeding is missing because it was deliberately removed (resulting in a light weight coin), or the coin was stuck in between two moving surfaces (such as in a clothes dryer) and the reeds were pressed together. The rims look unusually high, so I suspect the latter. Lots of people who work with their hands at al;l kinds of jobs collect coins. But we all learn very quickly to avoid damaging coins by handling by the edges, only.

RE: "Is that a perfect example of a ddo?" Is that a spelling error for "poopo" ?

There were no mintmarks of proof coins until 1968. The photo appears to show a strike through or stuck sliver of a sliver of wire or other metal. It overlaps the rim and sticks beyond the edge so it cannot be part of the die.

There is a small browser macro for Firefox that will drop all that trash before it hits your screen. It's free. I've forgotten the name, but it works on most sites.