zadok

amen....coinbuf...

...not all coins warrant the expense of certification, i.e. the cost of certification may not be recoverable if/when sold, having said that not all coins r certified with resale value as the goal...its ur coin n ur money n ur reasons to want it certified, much like having the extra large milkshake instead of the medium, if it makes u feel good go for it, we don't need new cars but we buy them anyway, over n over again...when posters cant present valid reasoning for their uninformed positions they usually retreat to generalized rationale to shore up their opinions, certainly not abnormal actions for many of the threads in this forum...there r literally thousands of collectible coins with FMV under $200 dollars that r certified year after year for various warranted reasons, authentication, verification of variety, better access to resale marketability, grade determination, presentation, uniformity of collection n many other personal reasons that have little to no relationship to FMV...coins need not be uncirculated nor high dollar value to warrant TPG n certification, recovery of certification fees r not the end all for many if not most true collectors...

...FMV is not the sole determinate on whether any coin is worth the cost of getting certified/graded, there r various good reasons to have coins graded...one is to have the coins certified as genuine if they r of higher interest or collectability, another is to get a more precise determination of actual grade, in many instances a difference of 1-2 points can equate to multiples of the grading fees...using a threshold of $200-$250 to decide whether a coin should be graded is simply obtuse, the actual financial depreciation of the cost of grading is not determined by FMV its more determined by what one paid for the coin, the coin could have been a gift or purchased for significantly less than its FMV, hence the $22 grading fee is less consequential...in the instance being referenced, a 1921 Peace dollar, even in very low grades the coin routinely sells for $100+, it doesn't need to be au or unc to warrant the benefits of being graded...which was the point of my post to start with...not all coins r worth getting graded, pure bullion related coins or common date lower grade coins or coins valued at close to $25 certainly would not be worth the grading fees...if u purchased a coin for $250 that has a FMV of $250 n then pay a $22 grading fee n sell the coin for its FMV, yes u will realize a loss, but yes u r most likely not an astute financial wizard...the 1921 Peace dollar does not fall into these last categories n unless u happened to have paid FMV or more most likely warrants paying the grading fee...using a $200-$250 FMV as a cut off to determine whether a coin warrants grading is not a sound rule of thumb...

...disregard the above advice u received on ur 1921 peace dollar, the poster is uninformed, while not an extremely rare coin it is a semi-key for the series n the difference in numerical grades can result in as much as a $50 difference which more than offsets the cost of having certified, plus the additional benefit of establishing it as a genuine issue n not a fake...

...oxy-moronic statement...commodities r financial assets, all stocks r speculations n financial assets...im sure the irs n many financial institutions would strongly disagree with ur assessment...

...regard the 1794 SP dollar...its not that there weren't non-collector investors that wouldn't buy it, it was more that those investors wouldn't buy it at the reserve price...

...fractional investors are just that, they r investors n they make little to no pretense to be collectors, even if they invest in a collectible...they invest in hopes they get a profitable return on their investment...horses per se have long been syndicated by persons who never see the horse, just give me my share of the winnings if there r any n my share of the stud fees or foals if that applies...multi-million dollar paintings, potential scientific discoveries, mineral deposits and yes even some baseball r also syndicated or fractionalized...some coins have been purchased by conglomerates/syndicates but to a far lesser degree, perhaps because the resale market is not easily predictable n also very shallow, also because so few coins lend themselves to the lofty prices necessary to syndicate...r coins analogous to financial assets, absolutely...coins if bought with a investment consideration r no different than buying any other speculative asset...r such coins dead investments, absolutely not...they r just dormant the same as a painting or rare stamp, after all all shares of stock r dead investments as well, they just have an open market on which they r reflected on a near daily basis, same with gold, coins more or less have trends rather than a market...as for fractional investment assets, all stock shares r fractional investments; however, we now have fractional investments in individual shares of fractional investments (robinhood) we shall see how this turns out...fractional investments in coins isn't likely to be widespread n most likely not exceptionally profitable, the coin spectrum just doesn't support a broad market base, but there r a few coins that could lend themselves to that level of speculation, the participants most likely wont be collectors, they just want a return on their investment...much like gm who invests in assisted living homes, he doesn't want to own a table , a wall, a bed, a wheelchair or a flower bed, he just wants a portion of the proceeds n hopes he mite not need to live there n eat up all his proceeds... ...I guess if one wanted a living investment, one could invest in a Christmas tree farm, depending on which part of the world lives in...

...coin collecting has always been competitive, even when there was only one collector, he was competing against himself...only a non-collector doesn't understand that....I guess that's who they have baking shows for....

amen....I want the part with the bubblegum...

...no one ever said that coin collectors were sane...

...interesting that many of the most prolific proponents of dismantling, relocating and deaccessing the ana r not members nor collectors, why would members or collectors listen to their opinions or recommendations without questioning their motives ... recommendations to move the ana to new york city, wash dc, chicago, los angeles other supposedly more sophisticated locations r simply inane, why would any collector, researcher or yn want to go to any of those locations in this day n age..."instigation of this heresy" was misinformed n wrong in the past n still is in the present...some members of this forum seem to have been living in prairie dog holes for the past few decades n r out of touch with the hobby n collectors, non-collectors usually r...there r many adjuncts to the hobby that provide individuals with influence, platforms n accolades, often inflated, that do not translate to well grounded opinions n recommendations for what is best for the hobby or the ana...there is always room for improvements n the ana is facing challenging times but it is currently well situated geographically, financially n professionally...

...just an insight, mostly because its a dreary day and im bored, registry sets are in fact positive adjuncts to the numismatic hobby, they do not take away from or marginalize coin collecting in any way, they do in a limited way promote collecting, true both pcgs and ngc promote their respective registries and make supplemental money from those promotions due to the requirement that coins submitted must be slabbed and certified, hence more money in their tpg pockets...many if not most collectors that participate in registries have their coins certified anyway, the registries are basically free if u r already a member and pose no additional expense to the collector...seeing ones collections represented on a registry page is much like looking at ones collection in Whitman blue boards in the olden days, ditto filling that last slot on a registry page is like filling that last hole in the board...sure there is a sense of competition and completeness, neither a negative...the real aspect of registries that is most overlooked is the effort, commitment, professionalism and dedication to the collector by the staffs that administer and maintain the registries, to these individuals I salute u...VKB pooh-poohing the registries serves no purpose to himself, other collectors or the hobby...his comments will not prevent anyone from joining a registry nor cause anyone to leave a registry anymore than mine will...no one is forced to participate, its just a matter of personal choice and perhaps a sense of personal achievement and feeling good about your chosen hobby, not much these days offers such positive attributes....

...yes research available at both organizations...of course covid has restricted access and scheduling, educational research is a mainstay and underlying principle to both organizations' irs and congressional status....most museums coin or otherwise only have a small percentage of their collections on display and rotate their exhibits...I worked at both the smithsonian numismatic collection and the ana collection and both rotated their collections...

...innovators and reshapers are not necessarily beneficial to the hobby...changing a hobby does not always make it better...many of the listed individuals were driven by financial aspirations rather than pure hobby improvements, original research into the roots of any hobby is usually a productive effort that adds clarification and historical documentation, research and innovation that is designed and motivated to simply influence others into following a desired path does not necessarily make the hobby better...not all innovators, reshapers, researchers are equal, some have actually damaged the hobby...perhaps the greatest influencers of a hobby were the originators and discoverers of the hobby while in its purest form and not all those that seek to change it...perhaps Coin World should have titled their survey to be a list of greatest positive influencers...

...the original point wasn't about the compensation or lack there of, it was about whether item could be tracked and if delivery could be confirmed...international track express does both...it is door to door outside of UK n there is delivery confirmation provided ....brillo was incorrect on his above statement about that issue....now if one wants shipping with full loss insurance, good luck with that, its not really available even in country, best use private courier service, but that issue is a separate discussion item....

...fyi, earlier in this thread there was discussion about hesitancy or declining to ship coins from the UK to US due to none tracking issues...this may have been an issue at one time, there is now available a Royal Mail option available that tracks the parcel door to door...its called International Tracked Express...comes with online confirmation of delivery and with signature required if so desired...I have been the recipient of this method of delivery without incident and in fact received such a numismatic parcel today with this tracking, total cost 12 pounds sterling...for future reference should the need arise...

...thank goodness...

...I would beg to differ...food, booze, trinkets, candy, cigarettes, nylons etc may provide a basis for localized barter in times of stress but hardly equate to stores of value...hard specie i.e. gold will always be more advantageous as a medium to obtain life essentials...during the pre thru post Vietnam war era Asian women migrating away from the areas of stress wore all the gold they could carry, im not aware of any instances of them carrying kegs of beer or bags of beans or the family cow with them in their departures...gold has been THE store of value for the past two millennia, medieval kings, feudal lords, emperors, knights templars et al derived their power n influence from their gold reserves, they did not pay their mercenaries in beef, mead or crumpets...countries with strong gold reserves still rule the roost...of course if one were on mars or the moon, its true that gold might not be preferable to oxygen or water...there is a dichotomy in these discussions; persons in areas of stress i.e. war zones that have no hope of escape obviously need to make it from day to day n need those necessities n can not drink nor eat gold, there must be required goods available for exchange, but for those with hope of escape gold will be their number one store of value to take with them...my father was also in the CBI theatre of operations during ww2 n the locals preferred the US dollar n British pound n in some instances mpc notes over all else...cigarettes n chocolates were just items of favor that were normally just given away...gold , land n maybe gunpowder continue to remain king....

....comments to comments: ...coin doesn't change brand to brand...true ...corn flake is a corn flake even in cheerios box...true, but tastes like oats ...amazing how much money goes into registry sets...true ...sunk money, never recovered...false, number 1 registry sets sell quite well at major auction sites ...hobbies make u happy...true ...that's all that matters...debatable

....perhaps u inadvertently mentioned "truffles" in ur inquiries?....

...CAC "endorsement" can be beneficial in certain areas of US coin collecting....I wont go into that on this thread....but, most "old time" pure collectors rely on their own acquired grading knowledge to determine whether the coin they r considering buying meets their standards or needs, they don't require TPG or stickers or beans....after all, u know if the girl is pretty or not regardless of the dress she is wearing...

....CAC doesn't sticker foreign coins.....

...I personally do not believe that MS letter is addressing any BU clad quarter collectors or circ Lincoln collectors....its all about the whales coming to eat the krill...

WC thanks for expanding on ur rationale, yes I would agree that attempts to migrate the TPG efforts to a global acceptance would disenfranchise even more pure collectors n drive them from the numismatic mainstream...that's why many US collectors sold off their US collections n migrated to collecting the more interesting n challenging foreign issues, there was still opportunities to actually collect, I divested myself of approximately 80% of my US collections several years ago n found that I could get more bang for my buck n more collecting satisfaction in several of the foreign issues....im sure the heavily promoted TPG efforts will receive initial success but the more entrenched foreign collecting fraternities wont go along willingly...n eventually the pure investors will become disenchanted n go on to the next asset escalation, especially after the inflated prices collapse....the real issue here is collecting versus investing, sure we all hope we don't lose money if when we sell, but filling that last whole in ur album is as they say...priceless

WC ur condemnation of MS letter is surely echoing throughout the numismatic community....true collectors have been ushered to the fringes of the numismatic world ever since the advent of TPG when MS65-70 coins became king, try talking to the high level dealers about an VF/XF variety coin at a busy coin show....with the assault on the world by the covid virus, the collectors universe just became more compounded, being forced into online sight unseen buying has pushed the collector even further out on the fringes as the commercial (read $) aspect of numismatics scrambles to capture the infusion of investment monies into the hobby...multitudes of buyers with multitudes of money r looking for places to transfer that money into anything that shows financial potential, hence the attempts to classify coins as future assets with liquidity classification....but, just try to go into any bank n use ur numismatic assets as collateral to buy a house n u will see just how non-liquid they r, n heaven forbid if u collect stamps....yes, the TPG n auction houses have long sought to move numismatics closer to investors n further away from collectors, the hobby suffers....I would ask u to expound on ur statement ..."attempting to replicate the US collecting culture elsewhere"......im not quite sure how u envision this is being attempted, the numismatic world needs to know....