Nutmeg Coin

I'd sell them one at a time on ebay.  Buy it now with offers, never auction them unless you have dozens of followers.  Do your research to see what individual coins will likely sell for by researching sales in advanced search, click on "sold" items.  Common Morgan dollars that are cleaned may sell for $30-$40 or so.  No problem AUs and Uncs. will probably sell for around Greysheet.  GSAs and better dates, should do quite well.  Key dates need to be analyzed accurately on grade to determine at what price to list them.

I'd never think of trading or selling as a group, good way to lose a lot of money.

On 7/5/2022 at 9:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Without paying attention to the specifics, criticism should certainly be allowed.  I'm not sure if bringing in the government to evaluate hobby standards is wise.  They have better things to do and we can self-police through the market.

My experience is that there are a lot of business entities that will pay no attention to persistent problems unless an oversight agency or entity such as the PNG take some actions for its members.  Complaints with state consumer rights organization can be quite helpful.  

On 7/5/2022 at 8:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You mean for forum posts....or grades/labels on coins ?

It was a while back, something major, not posts. I suggested that if collectors on the CU forums found that PCGS was doing something against numismatic rules they could take it up with the PNG or consumer agency.

They gave me a warning when I suggested that members could go over the head of PCGS to either a numismatic or governmental entity on some of their arbitrary actions.

On 7/5/2022 at 5:45 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s not easy to say in this PC era, but sometimes clichés become clichés for a reason, a very good reason. There just are some places with which you just shouldn’t do business. This might be one. 

Actually many people buy from Europe when it looks like the seller is professional and has good feedback.  However you never know when an account may be hijacked with dark forces taking over as apparently happened here.

Thanks for RWB's many contributions to the hobby, too bad he is not on the CU forums anymore to share his wisdom.

I noticed this NGC certified $20 gold coin listed at auction on ebay:  Liberty Head 20$ 1875 Philadelphia NGC MS62 beautiful coin | eBay

Registry coin on the NGC site, same pictures:  1875 United States $20 | NGC (ngccoin.com)

Reported to NGC customer service who said it was not listed as stolen.

My take on this is that the series, in this case Trade dollars which are somewhat quirky with luster usually lacking, all the fakes, etc.. So they graded them higher.   They tend to be right on the money with Morgans and tight on other series such as copper nickel coins and cents.  

They could be a lot pickier back in the day, especially with all the dignity accorded and expected  back then.

I've dealt with dishonesty in a few dealers and keep personal feelings out it.  

I was a little surprised to hear a well known and respected dealer from VA this week refer to a dealer who went to jail as "that worm".

I have this 1875-cc $20 Lib. NGC MS60, asking $7450 delivered.  https://i.imgur.com/eUrIbB0.jpg

It depends on the coin series; I know a long time dealer, 40-50 years who doesn't want to spend all the money that P/N charge, instead uses Anacs, at under $10 a coin, they are an option on lower cost coins, ICG is never under $10 even with their specials.  I find ICG very responsive with one of their graders even giving specific responses to questions, neither P/N will do that, but they remain the market standard, especially with the cac sticker.  

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On 5/20/2018 at 12:55 PM, AlexStoddart said:

I recently purchased three CC Trade Dollars all graded by IGC.  The only ICG graded coins I have ever purchased.  They came back from NGC as follows:

ICG XF 40 back as NGC XF Details Cleaned 

ICG AU 53 back as NGC AU Details Cleaned

ICG MS 61 back as NGC XF 45

A very costly mistake on my part.  Now if this is a representation of how ICG grades coins it comes in as slightly better than pathetic.  A grader can't tell if a coin is 'cleaned'?

I have made it my policy never to buy an ICG graded coin as I feel their grading can not be trusted.  Sorry for being a spoil sport.

Alex

What I would have done would have been to send them in to PCGS as crossovers, would have cost you around $20 a coin through a dealer and you could have specified minimum grades.  You still have the options to ask ICG to put them back into the old holders if you have the proof or the tabs still.  They are usually good about that.  ICG also has the guarantee submission option like other services if you believe what you have is over-graded.  Get a letter from a well known numismatist backing you up on the actual grades on the coins and approximate value and have ICG respond.

Trade dollars are tricky, if they have eye appeal and are a little "brushy" or "cleaned" ICG may have weighed the positives and negatives and felt they deserved straight grades.  I know a long term dealer who will not send much to NGC these days just because they are ridiculous on the "cleaned" issue when a coin may be market acceptable.  PCGS is more lenient on the "cleaned" issue.

They provide a high level of professional and intellectual rigor to their analysis.  Their sticker on many coins is worth a lot more than sellers will get.  More liquidity with cac.  I often get ebay offers around cac bid from dealers and serious collectors because they realize there is not risk for them.

This was the original coin; it cleaned up a little with Maguires but not enough.  In retrospect, I should have saved it for a reholder, true view, etc. with PCGS.

Why cross?  The obverse holder was impaired, I could not fix that.  But it looked PL to me and another dealer.  So it could have gone 63 pl or 63 plus at NGC. The other option was sending it to PCGS to reholder with true view and secure holder.  

The coin is MS63; but it would be almost impossible to make a grade assessment in normal conditions with a marred plastic holder especially with the scanner image.  And certainly the grading services are sensible sometimes to err on the side of caution because once they take it out they are responsible.  

The holder was marred, I could not fix it, there are others who can who contacted me on another site.  I did not want to ship it out again on that proposition, the NGC submission cost shipping and submission cost.  

Some grades are as objective as 2 + 2 = 4, like this one was.  The obverse holder was scratched and then cleaned up with scratch repair but was still a little marred.  The coin went through NCS first, not grading.  If an already certified coin is in an impaired holder it needs to be viewed in semi-darkness like the graders and cac does; I'm not sure how NCS views coins and holders and what provision they have for somewhat impaired holders.  

I can think of a dozen reasons why crossovers do not happen aside from an accurate grade judgment.  

I sent in a coin worth around $2000 to crossover to NGC; they would not cross though it was an old green PCGS holder and recently cac stickered.  The coin was at least semi-pl and original, the obverse holder had been scratched and I used Maguire's to clean up the holder.  The "lens" was still a little impaired, but not enough to preclude cac liking it.  I did not get a reason just that they could not guarantee it would be the same grade. Strange.  

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/history/events/8-myths-and-atrocities-about-christopher-columbus-and-columbus-day/

Idealized image.  https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anecdotes-from-the-archive/will-the-real-christopher-columbus-please-stand-up/

The coin doesn't look original to me, typical of Great southern's style, you wonder what they are hiding with their large volume.  Same thing with "Centsles".  Poor photography.

All NGC would have had to do is require PCGS coins included in the registry to pass muster with cac, eagle eye, etc..  Their thesis of non-inclusion was that PCGS was watering down their grading, that would have been a sensible solution.   

I'd like to see a thorough catalogue of the rogues gallery of swindlers, con-artists, and low lifes (and the few honorable people) that were running the collector/dealer world at that time.  It reminds me a little of the shady operators in the realty world that have held sway in some areas.  

I found his main work to be interesting, and expensive but often purloined from libraries, so you are lucky to find a copy at your local library.

On the other hand no one is irreplaceable, if he hadn't been writing what he was you can be sure many would have filled the vacuum.  As it was many competent writers probably saw his work and wondered what's the use of competing with him?  And you know law enforcement could be a lot better to address serious abuse while it is still green and developing, but that's the defect of how many were taught growing up to not rock the boat, report transgressors that in some magical way karma would work itself out without your reporting bad behavior.  Not the way the world works.